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	<title>Comments on: Prescription for the Planet &#8211; Part III &#8211; Renewable atoms and plasma-charged waste</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/</link>
	<description>Getting to grips with the brave new world of future climate and energy - notes from a Promethean environmentalist</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 19:40:35 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Take real action on climate change &#8211; Part 1 &#171; BraveNewClimate</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-82329</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Take real action on climate change &#8211; Part 1 &#171; BraveNewClimate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:57:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-82329</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Recycle our waste through plasma converters and reduce our materials [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Recycle our waste through plasma converters and reduce our materials [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Glen</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-39944</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Glen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-39944</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Underground Coal Gasification seems to be a good way to use coal without producing large amounts of CO2.
http://money.ninemsn.com/article.aspx?id=983406]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Underground Coal Gasification seems to be a good way to use coal without producing large amounts of CO2.<br />
<a href="http://money.ninemsn.com/article.aspx?id=983406" rel="nofollow">http://money.ninemsn.com/article.aspx?id=983406</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Barry Brook</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-12699</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barry Brook]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-12699</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here is a New Scientist article that&#039;s just appeared which discusses, in a fair amount of depth, the plasma gasification methods described in the post above and detailed by Tom Blees. Definitely worth a read:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227051.500-zapping-rubbish-into-ecofuel.html?DCMP=NLC-nletter&amp;nsref=mg20227051.500

There does seem to be too much conflation in the article between &#039;gasification&#039; and the much higher temperature &#039;plasma gasification&#039; -- the latter avoids most of the flaws of the former, though might be a bit more expensive until commercialised on a large scale.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a New Scientist article that&#8217;s just appeared which discusses, in a fair amount of depth, the plasma gasification methods described in the post above and detailed by Tom Blees. Definitely worth a read:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227051.500-zapping-rubbish-into-ecofuel.html?DCMP=NLC-nletter&#038;nsref=mg20227051.500" rel="nofollow">http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227051.500-zapping-rubbish-into-ecofuel.html?DCMP=NLC-nletter&#038;nsref=mg20227051.500</a></p>
<p>There does seem to be too much conflation in the article between &#8216;gasification&#8217; and the much higher temperature &#8216;plasma gasification&#8217; &#8212; the latter avoids most of the flaws of the former, though might be a bit more expensive until commercialised on a large scale.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Russell</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-12600</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff Russell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-12600</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I guess it depends on what you mean by hard. From Wikipedia:

&quot;This is done at 15–25 MPa (150–250 bar) and between 
300 and 550 °C&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess it depends on what you mean by hard. From Wikipedia:</p>
<p>&#8220;This is done at 15–25 MPa (150–250 bar) and between<br />
300 and 550 °C&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tom Blees</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-12570</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Blees]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 02:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-12570</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Given that Australia has no experience of nuclear power generation and would require many years to train sufficient personnel, a 90% capacity factor is very optimistic. A more realistic figure would be starting with the 56% percent that US reactors had in 1980 ramping up to 90% after 20 years.&lt;/i&gt;

It&#039;s not like you have to have people shepherding these things along to keep them running. They pretty much work as on autopilot. The increase in capacity factors in the USA had to do with improvements in technology, not in training.

&lt;i&gt;Solar thermal plants with their much lower thermal load are almost always air cooled. &lt;/i&gt;

As I&#039;ve said before, the cooling requirements for CSP per kWh produced are the same as for nuclear, coal, or gas. If solar can do it all air-cooled it&#039;s because they produce so little power. You can&#039;t have your cake and eat it too.

&lt;i&gt;Seawater nuclear plants are restricted by the amount of acceptable sites near cities that are already not being used by desalination.&lt;/i&gt;

You&#039;d use IFRs for both, they&#039;d be dual-use plants. That way they can be used for peaking very easily. You&#039;d run them at full power all the time, varying the amount of heat channeled to each purpose as the electrical demand requires. That way you avoid having to throttle them back. Others would be dual-use for vehicle fuel (boron, or hydrogen for ammonia-powered vehicles). Likewise that would allow them to run at 100% while still being highly responsive for load-following, obviating the need for natural gas plants for peaking. It&#039;s the multipurpose aspect of this that makes IFRs so ideal. As is they&#039;re still very good at load-following, but dual-use makes them every bit as responsive as gas, or even better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Given that Australia has no experience of nuclear power generation and would require many years to train sufficient personnel, a 90% capacity factor is very optimistic. A more realistic figure would be starting with the 56% percent that US reactors had in 1980 ramping up to 90% after 20 years.</i></p>
<p>It&#8217;s not like you have to have people shepherding these things along to keep them running. They pretty much work as on autopilot. The increase in capacity factors in the USA had to do with improvements in technology, not in training.</p>
<p><i>Solar thermal plants with their much lower thermal load are almost always air cooled. </i></p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve said before, the cooling requirements for CSP per kWh produced are the same as for nuclear, coal, or gas. If solar can do it all air-cooled it&#8217;s because they produce so little power. You can&#8217;t have your cake and eat it too.</p>
<p><i>Seawater nuclear plants are restricted by the amount of acceptable sites near cities that are already not being used by desalination.</i></p>
<p>You&#8217;d use IFRs for both, they&#8217;d be dual-use plants. That way they can be used for peaking very easily. You&#8217;d run them at full power all the time, varying the amount of heat channeled to each purpose as the electrical demand requires. That way you avoid having to throttle them back. Others would be dual-use for vehicle fuel (boron, or hydrogen for ammonia-powered vehicles). Likewise that would allow them to run at 100% while still being highly responsive for load-following, obviating the need for natural gas plants for peaking. It&#8217;s the multipurpose aspect of this that makes IFRs so ideal. As is they&#8217;re still very good at load-following, but dual-use makes them every bit as responsive as gas, or even better.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Blees</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-12569</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Blees]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 02:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-12569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, that&#039;s my bro Dave.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, that&#8217;s my bro Dave.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tom Blees</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-12568</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Blees]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 02:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-12568</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The simplest method is to simply harvest the heat coming off the plasma process to generate steam, and burn the syngas to generate more steam. With typical American garbage you&#039;ll generate enough electricity to feed about 80% to the grid, with 20% going back to keep the torches running. The energy comes from the garbage, as Dave said.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The simplest method is to simply harvest the heat coming off the plasma process to generate steam, and burn the syngas to generate more steam. With typical American garbage you&#8217;ll generate enough electricity to feed about 80% to the grid, with 20% going back to keep the torches running. The energy comes from the garbage, as Dave said.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Blees</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-12567</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Blees]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 02:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-12567</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The amount of water needed for nuclear is the same as that needed for an equivalent output of coal or gas-fired electricity. Read up on how cooling systems work in power plants and you&#039;ll see that this is a frequently misunderstood (and harped on!) argument against nuclear that falls flat when you understand it. CSP of equivalent output would need as much cooling system capacity as with a nuclear plant.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The amount of water needed for nuclear is the same as that needed for an equivalent output of coal or gas-fired electricity. Read up on how cooling systems work in power plants and you&#8217;ll see that this is a frequently misunderstood (and harped on!) argument against nuclear that falls flat when you understand it. CSP of equivalent output would need as much cooling system capacity as with a nuclear plant.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tom Blees</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-12566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Blees]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 02:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-12566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Read on. I propose building two 2.5GW IFRs/week, and show how it can be done without undue economic hardship. Quite the contrary, actually. One secret is their operation at atmospheric pressure, another is their modularity, allowing the construction to be divvied up amongst companies all around the world, resulting in greater efficiencies, quality control, and economies of scale. And fuel enrichment isn&#039;t an issue, nor is mining. You need neither with IFRs.

Energy efficiency, as you suggest, is the low-hanging fruit that should definitely be pursued.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Read on. I propose building two 2.5GW IFRs/week, and show how it can be done without undue economic hardship. Quite the contrary, actually. One secret is their operation at atmospheric pressure, another is their modularity, allowing the construction to be divvied up amongst companies all around the world, resulting in greater efficiencies, quality control, and economies of scale. And fuel enrichment isn&#8217;t an issue, nor is mining. You need neither with IFRs.</p>
<p>Energy efficiency, as you suggest, is the low-hanging fruit that should definitely be pursued.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tom Blees</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-12565</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Blees]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 02:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-12565</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s not hard to make ammonia, you just have to produce the hydrogen. Once you have that it&#039;s easy. Now we get it from natural gas. With abundant IFR energy you could get it from electrolysis. As for plasma converters, the reason they didn&#039;t take off since the 70s is because tipping fees (the cost of dumping garbage) were about $10/ton in the USA, and the cost of building plasma converters isn&#039;t really economical until you get to about double that or so. Now that tipping fees are topping $30-35 it makes sense. Japan already has a couple, and we&#039;re now building them in the USA. The energy comes from the garbage, of course. It&#039;s not a perpetual motion machine!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not hard to make ammonia, you just have to produce the hydrogen. Once you have that it&#8217;s easy. Now we get it from natural gas. With abundant IFR energy you could get it from electrolysis. As for plasma converters, the reason they didn&#8217;t take off since the 70s is because tipping fees (the cost of dumping garbage) were about $10/ton in the USA, and the cost of building plasma converters isn&#8217;t really economical until you get to about double that or so. Now that tipping fees are topping $30-35 it makes sense. Japan already has a couple, and we&#8217;re now building them in the USA. The energy comes from the garbage, of course. It&#8217;s not a perpetual motion machine!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dale Butler</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-12514</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dale Butler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 09:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-12514</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Geoff Russell
The reason rooftop PV costs so much is that it has been subsidised at he point of sale for over 10 years.
The solar companies just pocket the subsidy and serve up the same 10 year old stuff.
Same goes for nuclear actually, except the subsidy period has been for 60 years. The IFR will never get going without a massive subsidy. Unfortunately the major source of subsidy - bomb making - will not apply. Or maybe it will; you could make a good Hafnium bomb with the IFR. Now the thought of that should make you go all gooey inside :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff Russell<br />
The reason rooftop PV costs so much is that it has been subsidised at he point of sale for over 10 years.<br />
The solar companies just pocket the subsidy and serve up the same 10 year old stuff.<br />
Same goes for nuclear actually, except the subsidy period has been for 60 years. The IFR will never get going without a massive subsidy. Unfortunately the major source of subsidy &#8211; bomb making &#8211; will not apply. Or maybe it will; you could make a good Hafnium bomb with the IFR. Now the thought of that should make you go all gooey inside :)</p>
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		<title>By: ondrejch</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-7807</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ondrejch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Mar 2009 09:19:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-7807</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Concerning proliferation, given the fact that IFR fuel cycle does not separate Pu, and the Pu isotopic mixture is unusable for a practical weapon design, the proliferation risk of IFR is zero.

It would take more effort to just separate pure Pu from the IFR fuel mix, than to make a simple well known graphite pile with natural uranium, and after low burn-up obtain a superior weapon grade Pu. Decades old and known technology needed, low radioactivity involved, proved and available (declassified) warhead designs, no major R&amp;D issues. 

Even after much more involved (due to intense radioactivity) separation of Pu from the IFR fuel, one would end up with vastly inferior material, which even if it could perhaps theoretically explode, practical problems such as the need for heavily shielded robotic manufacturing and machining of the warhead, problems with heat dissipation of the RG-Pu fuel nearby explosives, radiation damage to warhead electronics, and ease of weapon detection through intense radiation signature, present significant obstacles. 

As shown by isolated and starving North Korea, if any government decides to acquire nuclear weaponry, there is no real technological challenge in repeating the 60 years old process, independently of any nuclear energy for electricity in either case. 

Therefore the issue of nuclear weapons proliferation is an issue of international politics, and it&#039;s tie to commercial nuclear energy is only indirect - societies with abundant affordable clean domestic power producing infrastructure are much less conductive to conflicts than societies impoverished, starved for energy, or dependent on energy imports from unstable or hostile regions.


There are other issues with nuclear materials than proliferation, including radio sources for medical or other uses, and all these materials need to be accounted for in a sane regulatory environment, similarly to explosives, fertilizers, etc., as is indeed the case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Concerning proliferation, given the fact that IFR fuel cycle does not separate Pu, and the Pu isotopic mixture is unusable for a practical weapon design, the proliferation risk of IFR is zero.</p>
<p>It would take more effort to just separate pure Pu from the IFR fuel mix, than to make a simple well known graphite pile with natural uranium, and after low burn-up obtain a superior weapon grade Pu. Decades old and known technology needed, low radioactivity involved, proved and available (declassified) warhead designs, no major R&amp;D issues. </p>
<p>Even after much more involved (due to intense radioactivity) separation of Pu from the IFR fuel, one would end up with vastly inferior material, which even if it could perhaps theoretically explode, practical problems such as the need for heavily shielded robotic manufacturing and machining of the warhead, problems with heat dissipation of the RG-Pu fuel nearby explosives, radiation damage to warhead electronics, and ease of weapon detection through intense radiation signature, present significant obstacles. </p>
<p>As shown by isolated and starving North Korea, if any government decides to acquire nuclear weaponry, there is no real technological challenge in repeating the 60 years old process, independently of any nuclear energy for electricity in either case. </p>
<p>Therefore the issue of nuclear weapons proliferation is an issue of international politics, and it&#8217;s tie to commercial nuclear energy is only indirect &#8211; societies with abundant affordable clean domestic power producing infrastructure are much less conductive to conflicts than societies impoverished, starved for energy, or dependent on energy imports from unstable or hostile regions.</p>
<p>There are other issues with nuclear materials than proliferation, including radio sources for medical or other uses, and all these materials need to be accounted for in a sane regulatory environment, similarly to explosives, fertilizers, etc., as is indeed the case.</p>
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		<title>By: ondrech</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-7802</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ondrech]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Mar 2009 08:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-7802</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ender:
&gt;Prominent Australian researchers have concluded from studies 
&gt;that they have done that renewable power can do the job and 
&gt;do it fairly easily even without nuclear power.

Perhaps you can explain, why Australia burns more and more coal, now over 2x more than two decades ago, and about 4x more coal burned than 3 decades ago?  This means that proportionally more dangerous fossil fuel wastes are produced, in spite of wishes. 

Also, why does Germany, European leader in renewable energies, plans 26 new coal burning plants? 

Apparently experience tells us that relying on prominent solar utopia dreamers in practice only solidifies the use of dangerous fossil fuels, as people become complacent that &quot;wind/solar/fairy dust energy will solve our issues&quot;, while in reality these resources are inadequate to contemporary energy needs, which can be demonstratively met by either combustion or fission.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ender:<br />
&gt;Prominent Australian researchers have concluded from studies<br />
&gt;that they have done that renewable power can do the job and<br />
&gt;do it fairly easily even without nuclear power.</p>
<p>Perhaps you can explain, why Australia burns more and more coal, now over 2x more than two decades ago, and about 4x more coal burned than 3 decades ago?  This means that proportionally more dangerous fossil fuel wastes are produced, in spite of wishes. </p>
<p>Also, why does Germany, European leader in renewable energies, plans 26 new coal burning plants? </p>
<p>Apparently experience tells us that relying on prominent solar utopia dreamers in practice only solidifies the use of dangerous fossil fuels, as people become complacent that &#8220;wind/solar/fairy dust energy will solve our issues&#8221;, while in reality these resources are inadequate to contemporary energy needs, which can be demonstratively met by either combustion or fission.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Prescription for the Planet - Part IV – Show me the money! &#171; BraveNewClimate.com</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-7505</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Prescription for the Planet - Part IV – Show me the money! &#171; BraveNewClimate.com]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-7505</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Prescription for the Planet - Part III - Renewable atoms and plasma-charged&#160;waste [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Prescription for the Planet &#8211; Part III &#8211; Renewable atoms and plasma-charged&nbsp;waste [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Byrne</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-5842</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Byrne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 05:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-5842</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Graham,

I&#039;ll take a look.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Graham,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll take a look.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: G.R.L. Cowan, H2 energy fan 'til ~1996</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-5806</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[G.R.L. Cowan, H2 energy fan 'til ~1996]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 19:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-5806</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You can link to part way into a PDF, but clearly, it&#039;s not easy!

Trying again: &lt;a href=&quot;http://wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/aesj/publication/JNST2001/No.9/38_757-765.pdf#page=8&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, table 7, one can learn that a CANDU fuel bundle, ten years after its retirement, can give a lethal radiation dose from 1 metre’s distance in 12 hours, as long as nothing denser than air is in the way.

[&lt;em&gt;Ed: Thanks Graham - I also fixed your original link&lt;/em&gt;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can link to part way into a PDF, but clearly, it&#8217;s not easy!</p>
<p>Trying again: <a href="http://wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/aesj/publication/JNST2001/No.9/38_757-765.pdf#page=8" rel="nofollow">here</a>, table 7, one can learn that a CANDU fuel bundle, ten years after its retirement, can give a lethal radiation dose from 1 metre’s distance in 12 hours, as long as nothing denser than air is in the way.</p>
<p>[<em>Ed: Thanks Graham - I also fixed your original link</em>]</p>
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		<title>By: G.R.L. Cowan, H2 energy fan 'til ~1996</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-5804</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[G.R.L. Cowan, H2 energy fan 'til ~1996]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-5804</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The U&amp;W equation I&#039;ve posted here before doesn&#039;t deal with specific isotopes, but closely approximates how their &lt;em&gt;collective&lt;/em&gt; behaviour varies over time. It says fuel of equal burnup is 2300 times more radioactive ten minutes after removal than it is ten &lt;em&gt;years&lt;/em&gt; after removal. 

&lt;a href=&quot;http://wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/aesj/publication/JNST2001/No.9/38_757-765.pdf#page=8&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt;, table 7, one can learn that a CANDU fuel bundle, ten years after its retirement, can give a lethal radiation dose from 1 metre&#039;s distance in 12 hours, as long as nothing denser than air is in the way.

CANDUs are water-cooled power reactors, and share that class&#039;s historically perfect proliferation resistance, perhaps due to their excessive conversion of the plutonium-239 they produce to 240, 241, etc. If it were possible for a ten-years-retired CANDU bundle to fall off a truck, an informed malefactor would not need physical courage to scoop it off the roadside with his bare hands and hide it under his coat for a few minutes. But he would also know that no great mischief could be done with it. If nothing better than CANDU reactors ever turns up, they&#039;re good enough to give the world many thousands of years of abundant clean bomb-unrelated energy.

As I understand the IFR idea, between taking fuel out of the reactor and reprocessing it you delay ten minutes rather than ten years; also, as it comes out, it has a much higher loading of fission fragments than CANDU fuel, a higher &lt;em&gt;burnup&lt;/em&gt;. Say ten times higher. 

That makes the radioactivity at any given post-removal time also ten times more, but this is a detail. The really big increase in radiation is due to the quickness with which the IFR operators would get it to the de-asher and get the de-ashed fuel back into service.

Adding in the estimated ten times greater burnup and we get the ashes in IFR fuel, just before they are removed from it, making it ~20000 times more radioactive than the ashes in CANDU fuel after ten years.

In terms of foiling a theft attempt, this 20000 is bound to be a slight underestimate, because the radiation from fast-decaying isotopes is more penetrating, less likely to be absorbed within the fuel itself. So dividing the 12 hours by 20000 gives us a conservative estimate of how quick the supposed thief, having neglected to bring a 50-tonne self-propelled shielding flask, will decide to sit down for a little rest, and never get up again: two seconds. Whoa, I hadn&#039;t known it was that quick. But since this estimate is conservative, it&#039;s probably quicker.

Of course, a half-dozen evil miracles would have to happen for him to get his tongs anywhere near a fuel rod during its brief, high-temperature journey from reactor to de-asher. Recall, the de-ashing in an IFR is also called &lt;strong&gt;pyro&lt;/strong&gt;-processing. Not because of any combustion, rather, because it occurs at a high temperature.

(&lt;em&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;How fire can be domesticated&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The U&amp;W equation I&#8217;ve posted here before doesn&#8217;t deal with specific isotopes, but closely approximates how their <em>collective</em> behaviour varies over time. It says fuel of equal burnup is 2300 times more radioactive ten minutes after removal than it is ten <em>years</em> after removal. </p>
<p><a href="http://wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/aesj/publication/JNST2001/No.9/38_757-765.pdf#page=8" rel="nofollow">Here</a>, table 7, one can learn that a CANDU fuel bundle, ten years after its retirement, can give a lethal radiation dose from 1 metre&#8217;s distance in 12 hours, as long as nothing denser than air is in the way.</p>
<p>CANDUs are water-cooled power reactors, and share that class&#8217;s historically perfect proliferation resistance, perhaps due to their excessive conversion of the plutonium-239 they produce to 240, 241, etc. If it were possible for a ten-years-retired CANDU bundle to fall off a truck, an informed malefactor would not need physical courage to scoop it off the roadside with his bare hands and hide it under his coat for a few minutes. But he would also know that no great mischief could be done with it. If nothing better than CANDU reactors ever turns up, they&#8217;re good enough to give the world many thousands of years of abundant clean bomb-unrelated energy.</p>
<p>As I understand the IFR idea, between taking fuel out of the reactor and reprocessing it you delay ten minutes rather than ten years; also, as it comes out, it has a much higher loading of fission fragments than CANDU fuel, a higher <em>burnup</em>. Say ten times higher. </p>
<p>That makes the radioactivity at any given post-removal time also ten times more, but this is a detail. The really big increase in radiation is due to the quickness with which the IFR operators would get it to the de-asher and get the de-ashed fuel back into service.</p>
<p>Adding in the estimated ten times greater burnup and we get the ashes in IFR fuel, just before they are removed from it, making it ~20000 times more radioactive than the ashes in CANDU fuel after ten years.</p>
<p>In terms of foiling a theft attempt, this 20000 is bound to be a slight underestimate, because the radiation from fast-decaying isotopes is more penetrating, less likely to be absorbed within the fuel itself. So dividing the 12 hours by 20000 gives us a conservative estimate of how quick the supposed thief, having neglected to bring a 50-tonne self-propelled shielding flask, will decide to sit down for a little rest, and never get up again: two seconds. Whoa, I hadn&#8217;t known it was that quick. But since this estimate is conservative, it&#8217;s probably quicker.</p>
<p>Of course, a half-dozen evil miracles would have to happen for him to get his tongs anywhere near a fuel rod during its brief, high-temperature journey from reactor to de-asher. Recall, the de-ashing in an IFR is also called <strong>pyro</strong>-processing. Not because of any combustion, rather, because it occurs at a high temperature.</p>
<p>(<em><a href="http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/" rel="nofollow">How fire can be domesticated</a></em>)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Byrne</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-5774</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Byrne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 06:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-5774</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the clarification Tom,

The paper addresses a number of other anticides and isotopes. What are the fission products that make it too dangerous to handle?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the clarification Tom,</p>
<p>The paper addresses a number of other anticides and isotopes. What are the fission products that make it too dangerous to handle?</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Blees</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-5771</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Blees]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 06:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-5771</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The radiation from plutonium isn&#039;t what&#039;s thorny for a would-be bombmaker. It&#039;s the fission products that are always mixed in with the plutonium (in an IFR) that make it too dangerous to handle. You can actually hold plutonium in your hand. That&#039;s precisely why we don&#039;t want to use systems that separate it from the hot stuff.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The radiation from plutonium isn&#8217;t what&#8217;s thorny for a would-be bombmaker. It&#8217;s the fission products that are always mixed in with the plutonium (in an IFR) that make it too dangerous to handle. You can actually hold plutonium in your hand. That&#8217;s precisely why we don&#8217;t want to use systems that separate it from the hot stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Byrne</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/01/25/prescription-for-the-planet-part-iii-renewable-atoms-and-plasma-charged-waste/#comment-5769</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Byrne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 05:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=990#comment-5769</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As discussed @61 here is one paper stating that plutonium radiation is not a severe obstacle to proliferation. http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jnst/45/10/1009/_pdf

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt; It was shown qualitatively that an inherent radiation barrier could not be considered as a severe obstacle for a would-be proliferator to make an explosive device. This is proved to be true for other plutonium of any conceivable isotopic composition and minor actinides.&quot; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As discussed @61 here is one paper stating that plutonium radiation is not a severe obstacle to proliferation. <a href="http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jnst/45/10/1009/_pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jnst/45/10/1009/_pdf</a></p>
<blockquote cite=""><p> It was shown qualitatively that an inherent radiation barrier could not be considered as a severe obstacle for a would-be proliferator to make an explosive device. This is proved to be true for other plutonium of any conceivable isotopic composition and minor actinides.&#8221;<br />
<blockquote></blockquote>
</blockquote>
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