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	<title>Comments on: Climate update &#8211; ongoing decline in South-East Australian rainfall</title>
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	<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/</link>
	<description>Getting to grips with the brave new world of future climate and energy - notes from a Promethean environmentalist</description>
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		<title>By: Airdrop extracts water from air, inspired by beetle &#124; SmartPlanet</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-146407</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Airdrop extracts water from air, inspired by beetle &#124; SmartPlanet]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:32:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-146407</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] designed Airdrop in 2009 as a drought-relief solution, responding to the devastating 12-year-drought which was affecting South-East Australia at the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] designed Airdrop in 2009 as a drought-relief solution, responding to the devastating 12-year-drought which was affecting South-East Australia at the [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bad news comes in threes &#171; Less than 2 Degrees</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-110514</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bad news comes in threes &#171; Less than 2 Degrees]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 23:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-110514</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] driest in the 100 year record. You can read the 8 page report here or a good short description at here. Computer modelling shows that the increase in temperature is moving a high pressure system called [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] driest in the 100 year record. You can read the 8 page report here or a good short description at here. Computer modelling shows that the increase in temperature is moving a high pressure system called [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: MITIC</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-52067</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MITIC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-52067</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Australia is the dryest continet for about 40 000 years.
Find out why and what can be done about it. 

Mitic CLIMATE ENGINEERING   FOR  AUSTRALIAN CONTINENT.

Using huge 12m tides for erosion assisted excavation of land channels and maintenance after 
Huge tidal erosion can revive paleo old dormant mighty rivers, creeks and lakes.
AUSTRALIAN CLIMATE MELIORATION MODIFICATION TO PRODUCE MORE 

CLOUDS AND RAIN ACROSS AUSTRALIAN CONTINENT.

Erosion trigger channel + huge tides = huge erosion of land tidal channels = low cost excavation with erosion = land desalination = more clouds = more rain = cooler climate = huge carbon sink

Ask the farmer that got trouble with erosion because of rain

what erosion would huge 12m tides do.

Ask the scientist how big will evaporation be in bone - dry scorching hot desert if tidal system of canal and channels is made by erosion assisted excavation.

1.  evaporation from saline tidal water, canals, channels, tidal lakes, tidal marshes 
2.  transpiration from mangroves and other sea water tolerating plants
3.  transpiration from rain forest around, ( tidal evaporation 1 and 2 = more rain = rainforest 3)

                Ask the engineer if it can be done.

             .
                Ask the economist would project be economical
                if less: cyclones,floods, droughts, bushfires,

                much more hydro energy

                Greener deserts, more clouds,
                more water in rivers lakes and soil
                Cooler Australian climate.


for more see:
 
http://www.royalcommission.vic.gov.au/Submissions/SubmissionDocuments/SUBM-002-010-0001_R.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Australia is the dryest continet for about 40 000 years.<br />
Find out why and what can be done about it. </p>
<p>Mitic CLIMATE ENGINEERING   FOR  AUSTRALIAN CONTINENT.</p>
<p>Using huge 12m tides for erosion assisted excavation of land channels and maintenance after<br />
Huge tidal erosion can revive paleo old dormant mighty rivers, creeks and lakes.<br />
AUSTRALIAN CLIMATE MELIORATION MODIFICATION TO PRODUCE MORE </p>
<p>CLOUDS AND RAIN ACROSS AUSTRALIAN CONTINENT.</p>
<p>Erosion trigger channel + huge tides = huge erosion of land tidal channels = low cost excavation with erosion = land desalination = more clouds = more rain = cooler climate = huge carbon sink</p>
<p>Ask the farmer that got trouble with erosion because of rain</p>
<p>what erosion would huge 12m tides do.</p>
<p>Ask the scientist how big will evaporation be in bone &#8211; dry scorching hot desert if tidal system of canal and channels is made by erosion assisted excavation.</p>
<p>1.  evaporation from saline tidal water, canals, channels, tidal lakes, tidal marshes<br />
2.  transpiration from mangroves and other sea water tolerating plants<br />
3.  transpiration from rain forest around, ( tidal evaporation 1 and 2 = more rain = rainforest 3)</p>
<p>                Ask the engineer if it can be done.</p>
<p>             .<br />
                Ask the economist would project be economical<br />
                if less: cyclones,floods, droughts, bushfires,</p>
<p>                much more hydro energy</p>
<p>                Greener deserts, more clouds,<br />
                more water in rivers lakes and soil<br />
                Cooler Australian climate.</p>
<p>for more see:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.royalcommission.vic.gov.au/Submissions/SubmissionDocuments/SUBM-002-010-0001_R.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.royalcommission.vic.gov.au/Submissions/SubmissionDocuments/SUBM-002-010-0001_R.pdf</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: perps</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-24995</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[perps]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 07:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-24995</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Further to the above post, the BOM and CSIRO have published new research definitively linking the present &quot;drought&quot; to climate change

http://www.theage.com.au/national/its-not-drought-its-climate-change-say-scientists-20090829-f3cd.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further to the above post, the BOM and CSIRO have published new research definitively linking the present &#8220;drought&#8221; to climate change</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theage.com.au/national/its-not-drought-its-climate-change-say-scientists-20090829-f3cd.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.theage.com.au/national/its-not-drought-its-climate-change-say-scientists-20090829-f3cd.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-19637</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 03:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-19637</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Use the Murray Darling Basin Authority website,Ian.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Use the Murray Darling Basin Authority website,Ian.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: David Gould</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-19528</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Gould]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 03:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-19528</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oops: I should clarify that the rainfall discussed in the above is Victorian rainfall.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops: I should clarify that the rainfall discussed in the above is Victorian rainfall.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: David Gould</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-19527</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Gould]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 02:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-19527</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have been looking at this issue over the last little while. Examining 5-year averages of global temperature anomalies and comparing those to 5-year averages of annual rainfall, a surprisingly close negative correlation emerges in the period starting with the 5-year average ending 1990.

The R^2 value is around 85. The slope of the line is around -4.80 mm per .01 degree centigrade. (I should point out that obviously this trend has not covered one full degree centigrade rise in global temperature anomaly - it only covers a .3 degree rise). If this trend continues for .6 degrees, the system will come close to meeting the technical definition of a desert.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been looking at this issue over the last little while. Examining 5-year averages of global temperature anomalies and comparing those to 5-year averages of annual rainfall, a surprisingly close negative correlation emerges in the period starting with the 5-year average ending 1990.</p>
<p>The R^2 value is around 85. The slope of the line is around -4.80 mm per .01 degree centigrade. (I should point out that obviously this trend has not covered one full degree centigrade rise in global temperature anomaly &#8211; it only covers a .3 degree rise). If this trend continues for .6 degrees, the system will come close to meeting the technical definition of a desert.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian George</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-19432</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian George]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 06:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-19432</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Quote from the Timbal paper,  “The continuing decline in South-East Australian rainfall — Update to May 2009“

.&#039;.....of particular concern for water resource management agencies have been recent record low inflows or river run-offs into the Murray-Darling Basin.&#039;

Does anyone know what the inflows for the MDB have been since 2005?  Or have a link?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quote from the Timbal paper,  “The continuing decline in South-East Australian rainfall — Update to May 2009“</p>
<p>.&#8217;&#8230;..of particular concern for water resource management agencies have been recent record low inflows or river run-offs into the Murray-Darling Basin.&#8217;</p>
<p>Does anyone know what the inflows for the MDB have been since 2005?  Or have a link?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Barry Brook</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-19422</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barry Brook]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 05:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-19422</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, sorry -- I missed the irony. Shows how jaded one becomes...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, sorry &#8212; I missed the irony. Shows how jaded one becomes&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Matt Andrews</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-19421</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt Andrews]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 05:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-19421</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Whoops! I seem to have expressed myself in a very unclear way.  Apologies.

I&#039;m completely in agreement with all that, Barry - in fact I was trying to argue exactly the same thing, in response to Ian George&#039;s post about precipitation patterns compared to CO2 levels.

For instance, when I said &quot;clearly the SE Australian drought is not a direct result of changes in the CO2 level&quot; I meant that it&#039;s not a direct physical response to 390ppm or whatever of CO2 in the atmosphere, it&#039;s a response to all the other changes in the climate system, such as temperature rises, circulation changes, etc, which are happening as a result of the CO2 increase (and many other forcings, of course).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoops! I seem to have expressed myself in a very unclear way.  Apologies.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m completely in agreement with all that, Barry &#8211; in fact I was trying to argue exactly the same thing, in response to Ian George&#8217;s post about precipitation patterns compared to CO2 levels.</p>
<p>For instance, when I said &#8220;clearly the SE Australian drought is not a direct result of changes in the CO2 level&#8221; I meant that it&#8217;s not a direct physical response to 390ppm or whatever of CO2 in the atmosphere, it&#8217;s a response to all the other changes in the climate system, such as temperature rises, circulation changes, etc, which are happening as a result of the CO2 increase (and many other forcings, of course).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Barry Brook</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-19417</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barry Brook]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 05:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-19417</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, more is going on. Read the Timbal paper, or the post above, and you&#039;ll see that other things are indeed discussed. Climate change can load dice without needing to create new phenomenon (though it can do that too). You, and others, are creating straw man statements, when you should know better -- if you were trying to think scientifically, instead of ideologically.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, more is going on. Read the Timbal paper, or the post above, and you&#8217;ll see that other things are indeed discussed. Climate change can load dice without needing to create new phenomenon (though it can do that too). You, and others, are creating straw man statements, when you should know better &#8212; if you were trying to think scientifically, instead of ideologically.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Brook</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-19416</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barry Brook]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 05:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-19416</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;clearly the SE Australian drought is not a direct result of changes in the CO2 level. If it were, the whole planet would presumably be undergoing a similar pattern of change, which is not the case. In fact, the big picture is that global precipitation rises with increases in global temperatures.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Climate models -- based on physical science -- do not predict planetary-wide drying. They predict an overall wettening of the planet, with drying around the Mediterranean regions -- just as is being observed. This is a straw man.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;Precipitation levels and rainfall patterns are influenced by many factors. To look simply at CO2 levels in a system as complex as climate, especially on a regional scale, is to miss the real picture.&lt;/i&gt;

Did you read and understand the linked paper by Timbal, or the IPCC chapters on this topic? If so, you will see careful explanation of the many factors that ARE indeed being considered, and note that it is not simply looking at CO2. Another straw man.

Matt, I suggest you study the reference paper a little more carefully.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;clearly the SE Australian drought is not a direct result of changes in the CO2 level. If it were, the whole planet would presumably be undergoing a similar pattern of change, which is not the case. In fact, the big picture is that global precipitation rises with increases in global temperatures.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Climate models &#8212; based on physical science &#8212; do not predict planetary-wide drying. They predict an overall wettening of the planet, with drying around the Mediterranean regions &#8212; just as is being observed. This is a straw man.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Precipitation levels and rainfall patterns are influenced by many factors. To look simply at CO2 levels in a system as complex as climate, especially on a regional scale, is to miss the real picture.</i></p>
<p>Did you read and understand the linked paper by Timbal, or the IPCC chapters on this topic? If so, you will see careful explanation of the many factors that ARE indeed being considered, and note that it is not simply looking at CO2. Another straw man.</p>
<p>Matt, I suggest you study the reference paper a little more carefully.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Matt Andrews</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-19414</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt Andrews]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 04:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-19414</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Others with far more expertise are better placed to comment, but clearly the SE Australian drought is not a direct result of changes in the CO2 level.  If it were, the whole planet would presumably be undergoing a similar pattern of change, which is not the case.  In fact, the big picture is that global precipitation rises with increases in global temperatures.

However, regional effects are generally much more significant than global trends, and the changes described in the article are due to shifts in climate systems (ENSO, the poleward migration of tropical regions, and so on).

Precipitation levels and rainfall patterns are influenced by many factors.  To look simply at CO2 levels in a system as complex as climate, especially on a regional scale, is to miss the real picture.  The earlier periods you mention at the start of the 20th century and around WWII had significantly lower temperatures than today; and the various climatic features of the region have begun to shift as a result of ocean temperature rises in particular, as well as other factors such as the changes in wind patterns around the Antarctic, etc etc.  Climate ain&#039;t simple.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Others with far more expertise are better placed to comment, but clearly the SE Australian drought is not a direct result of changes in the CO2 level.  If it were, the whole planet would presumably be undergoing a similar pattern of change, which is not the case.  In fact, the big picture is that global precipitation rises with increases in global temperatures.</p>
<p>However, regional effects are generally much more significant than global trends, and the changes described in the article are due to shifts in climate systems (ENSO, the poleward migration of tropical regions, and so on).</p>
<p>Precipitation levels and rainfall patterns are influenced by many factors.  To look simply at CO2 levels in a system as complex as climate, especially on a regional scale, is to miss the real picture.  The earlier periods you mention at the start of the 20th century and around WWII had significantly lower temperatures than today; and the various climatic features of the region have begun to shift as a result of ocean temperature rises in particular, as well as other factors such as the changes in wind patterns around the Antarctic, etc etc.  Climate ain&#8217;t simple.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian George</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-19394</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian George]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 23:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-19394</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So to put this into perspective, the present drought in SE Australia (mainly Victoria) received 1.5% less rainfall than the Jan 39 - Aug 47 (WW11 drought).  
This was when CO2 levels were around 300-310ppm as opposed to 370-390 in the past decade.  So a rise of say 80ppm leads to 8mm drop in yearly average rainfall.
Yet when CO2 levels were around 330ppm in the 1970s, there was increased rainfall (probably even more in the 50&#039;s). And the Federation drought brought very little rainfall to all parts of eastern Australia when temps and CO2 levels were much lower.
Are you sure that there is not something else going on here?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So to put this into perspective, the present drought in SE Australia (mainly Victoria) received 1.5% less rainfall than the Jan 39 &#8211; Aug 47 (WW11 drought).<br />
This was when CO2 levels were around 300-310ppm as opposed to 370-390 in the past decade.  So a rise of say 80ppm leads to 8mm drop in yearly average rainfall.<br />
Yet when CO2 levels were around 330ppm in the 1970s, there was increased rainfall (probably even more in the 50&#8242;s). And the Federation drought brought very little rainfall to all parts of eastern Australia when temps and CO2 levels were much lower.<br />
Are you sure that there is not something else going on here?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jerry Toman</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-19329</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry Toman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-19329</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Two solutions:

The Atmospheric Vortex Engine http://vortexengine.ca

The Seawater Greenhouse http://www.seawatergreenhouse.com

The first not only makes carbon-free electricity, but can be made to function as an artificial &quot;super-tree&quot; to provide humidity, cloud-cover.

In Almeria, Spain, (arid) greenhouses have reduced the local temperature by 0.3 C, while the rest of Spain has seen its temperature increase by 0.6 C.  They&#039;ve been using groundwater for this, and must switch to sea water.

It can be done with the help of the Vortex-assisted updrafts tied to connection ducts leaving the greenhouses.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two solutions:</p>
<p>The Atmospheric Vortex Engine <a href="http://vortexengine.ca" rel="nofollow">http://vortexengine.ca</a></p>
<p>The Seawater Greenhouse <a href="http://www.seawatergreenhouse.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.seawatergreenhouse.com</a></p>
<p>The first not only makes carbon-free electricity, but can be made to function as an artificial &#8220;super-tree&#8221; to provide humidity, cloud-cover.</p>
<p>In Almeria, Spain, (arid) greenhouses have reduced the local temperature by 0.3 C, while the rest of Spain has seen its temperature increase by 0.6 C.  They&#8217;ve been using groundwater for this, and must switch to sea water.</p>
<p>It can be done with the help of the Vortex-assisted updrafts tied to connection ducts leaving the greenhouses.</p>
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		<title>By: John Newlands</title>
		<link>http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/07/10/climate-update-ongoing-decline-in-south-east-australian-rainfall/#comment-19250</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Newlands]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 21:40:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bravenewclimate.com/?p=1529#comment-19250</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problems for food production keep piling up. Reduced winter rainfall, looming shortages of tractor diesel and ammonia based fertiliser and unhelpful humid conditions at harvest time. If the RET can be interpreted as 5 GW average renewable power by 2020 I&#039;d expect a dozen large desal plants to be drawing that power on their own. 

Desalinated water at $2+ per kL will be far too expensive to grow food. I think farming will have to become more localised and water efficient eg suburban hydroponic farms. Forget population growth unless it is the tropical north. Meanwhile the southern cities will remain in denial they have grown too large.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problems for food production keep piling up. Reduced winter rainfall, looming shortages of tractor diesel and ammonia based fertiliser and unhelpful humid conditions at harvest time. If the RET can be interpreted as 5 GW average renewable power by 2020 I&#8217;d expect a dozen large desal plants to be drawing that power on their own. </p>
<p>Desalinated water at $2+ per kL will be far too expensive to grow food. I think farming will have to become more localised and water efficient eg suburban hydroponic farms. Forget population growth unless it is the tropical north. Meanwhile the southern cities will remain in denial they have grown too large.</p>
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