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Renewables

Energy debates in Wonderland

My position on wind energy is quite ambivalent. I really do want it (and solar) to play an effective role in displacing fossil fuels, because to do this, we need every tool at our disposal (witness the Open Science project I kick started in 2009 [and found funding for], in order to investigate the real potential of renewables, Oz-Energy-Analysis.Org).

However, I think there is far too much wishful thinking wrapped up in the proclamations by the “100% renewables” crowd(most of who are unfortunately also anti-nuclear advocates), that wind somehow offers both a halcyon choice and an ‘industrial-strength’ solution to our energy dilemma. In contrast, my TCASE series (thinking critically about sustainable energy) illustrates that, pound-for-pound, wind certainty does NOT punch above it’s weight as a clean-energy fighter; indeed, it’s very much a journeyman performer.

The following guest post, by Jon Boone, looks at wind energy with a critical eye and a witty turn of phrase. I don’t offer it as a comprehensive technical critique — rather it’s more a philosophical reflection on past performance and fundamental limits. Whatever your view of wind, I think you’ll find it interesting.

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Energy debates in Wonderland

Guest Post by Jon Boone. Jon is a former university administrator and longtime environmentalist who seeks more more informed, effective energy policy in ways that expand and enhance modernity, increase civility, and demand stewardship on behalf of biodiversity and sensitive ecosystems. His brand of environmentalism eschews wishful thinking because it is aware of the unintended adverse consequences flowing from uninformed decisions. He produced and directed the documentary, Life Under a Windplant, which has been freely distributed within the United States and many countries throughout the world. He also developed the website Stop Ill Wind as an educational resource, posting there copies of his most salient articles and speeches. He receives no income from his work on wind technology.

March Hare (to Alice): Have some wine.

(Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea.)

Alice: I don’t see any wine.

March Hare: There isn’t any.

Alice: Then it wasn’t very civil of you to offer it.

March Hare: It wasn’t very civil of you to sit down without being invited.

— From Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland

Energy journalist Robert Bryce, whose latest book, Power Hungry, admirably foretells an electricity future anchored by natural gas from Marcellus Shale that will eventually bridge to pervasive use of nuclear power, has recently been involved in two prominent debates. In the first, conducted by The Economist, Bryce argued for the proposition that “natural gas will do more than renewables to limit the world’s carbon emissions.” In the second, an Intelligence Squared forum sponsored by the Rosenkranz Foundation, he and American Enterprise Institute scholar Steven Hayward argued against the proposition that “Clean Energy can drive America’s economic recovery.”

Since there’s more evidence a friendly bunny brings children multi-colored eggs on Easter Sunday than there is that those renewables darlings, wind and solar, can put much of a dent in CO2 emissions anywhere, despite their massively intrusive industrial presence, the first debate was little more than a curiosity. No one mentioned hydroelectric, which has been the most widely effective “renewable”—ostensibly because it continues to lose marketshare (it now provides the nation with about 7% of its electricity generation), is an environmental pariah to the likes of The Sierra Club, and has little prospect for growth. Nuclear, which provides the nation’s largest grid, the PJM, with about 40% of its electricity, is not considered a renewable, despite producing no carbon emissions; it is also on The Sierra Club’s hit list. Geothermal and biomass, those minor league renewables, were given short shrift, perhaps because no one thought they were sufficiently scalable to achieve the objective.

So it was a wind versus gas scrum played out as if the two contenders were equally matched as producers of power. Bryce pointed out wind’s puny energy density, how its noise harms health and safety, its threat to birds and bats, and how natural gas’s newfound abundance continues to decrease its costs—and its price. His opponent carried the argument that wind and solar would one day be economically competitive with natural gas, such that the former, since they produced no greenhouse gasses, would be the preferred choice over the latter, which does emit carbon and, as a non renewable, will one day become depleted.

Such a discussion is absurd at a number of levels, mirroring Alice’s small talk with the March Hare. One of the troubling things about the way wind is vetted in public discourse is how “debate” is framed to ensure that wind has modern power and economic value. It does not. Should we debate whether the 747 would do more than gliders in transporting large quantities of freight? Bryce could have reframed the discussion to ask whether wind is better than cumquats as a means of emissions reductions. But he didn’t. And the outcome of this debate, according to the vote, was a virtual draw.

Ironically, the American Natural Gas Association is perking up its louche ad slogan: “The success of wind and solar depends on natural gas.” Eureka! To ANGA, wind particularly is not an either to natural gas’s or. Rather, the renewables du jour will join forces with natural gas to reduce carbon emissions in a way that increases marketshare for all. With natural gas, wind would be an additive—not an alternative—energy source. Bryce might have made this clear.

What ANGA and industry trade groups like the Interstate Natural Gas Association of America (see its latest paper) don’t say is that virtually all emissions reductions in a wind/gas tandem would come from natural gas—not wind. But, as Bryce should also be encouraged to say, such a pretension is a swell way for the natural gas industry to shelter income via wind’s tax avoidance power. And to create a PR slogan based upon the deception of half-truths. Although natural gas can indeed infill wind’s relentless volatility, the costs would be enormous while the benefit would be inconsequential. Rate and taxpayers would ultimately pay the substantial capital expenses of supernumerary generation.

Beyond Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass

The Oxford-style Economist debate, which by all accounts Bryce and Hayward won with ease, nonetheless woozled around in a landscape worthy of Carroll’s Jabberwocky, complete with methodological slips, definitional slides, sloganeering, and commentary that often devolved into meaningless language—utter nonsense. It was as if Pixar had for the occasion magically incarnated the Red Queen, the Mad Hatter, and Humpty Dumpty, who once said in Through the Looking Glass, “When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.” Dumpty also said, “When I make a word do a lot of work … I always pay it extra.”

Those promoting “clean” were paying that word extra—and over the top, as Hayward frequently reminded by demanding a clear, consistent definition of clean technology.

Proponents frequently defined clean energy differently depending upon what they chose to mean. At times, they meant acts of commission in the form of “clean coal,” wind, solar, biomass (although ethanol was roundly condemned), and increased use of natural gas. Indeed, natural gas in the discussion became reified, in the best Nancy Pelosi/T. Boone Pickens tradition, as a clean source of energy on a par with wind and solar. At one time, clean also referred to nuclear—but the topic quickly changed back to wind and natural gas. At other times, clean referred to acts of omission, such as reducing demand with more efficient appliances, smarter systems of transmission, and more discerning lifestyle choices.

Shifting definitions about what was “clean” made for a target that was hard to hit. Bryce mentioned Jevon’s Paradox. Bulls eye. So much for increased efficiency. Hayward demonstrated that the US electricity sector has already cut SO2 and NOx emissions nearly 60% over the last 40 years, and reduced mercury emissions by about 40% over this time, despite tripling coal use from 1970 to 2005. Zap. All this without wind and solar. Green jobs from clean industry?  It would have been fruitful to have invoked Henry Hazlitt’s Broken Window fallacy, which illustrates the likelihood of few net new jobs because of the opportunities lost for other, more productive investment. Also welcoming would have been remarks about how more jobs in the electricity sector must translate into increased costs, making electricity less affordable. Such a development would substantially subvert prospects for economic recovery.

In arguing against the proposition that clean energy could be a force for economic recovery, Bryce and Hayward did clean the opposition’s clock (they had, as everyone agreed, the numbers on their side). But they also let the opposition off the hook by not exposing the worms at the core of the proposition. Yes, the numbers overwhelmingly suggest that coal and natural gas are going to be around for a long time, and that they will continue to be the primary fuels, along with oil, to energize the American economy.** They can be, as they have been, made cleaner by reducing their carbon emissions even more. But they won’t be clean. Outside Wonderland, cleaner is still not clean.

The proposition therefore had to fail. Even in Wonderland.

Example of the twinning between natural gas and renewable energy - unacceptable from a greenhouse gas mitigation perspective

Capacity Matters

These arguments, however, are mere body blows. Bryce should have supplied the knockout punch by reminding that any meaningful discussion of electricity production, which could soon embrace 50% of our overall energy use, must consider the entwined goals of reliability, security, and affordability, since reliable, secure, affordable electricity is the lynchpin of our modernity. Economic recovery must be built upon such a foundation. At the core of this triad, however, resides the idea of effective capacity—the ability of energy suppliers to provide just the right amount of controllable power at any specified time to match demand at all times. It is the fount of modern power applications.

By insisting that any future technology—clean, cleaner, or otherwise, particularly in the electricity sector—must produce effective capacity, Bryce would have come quickly to the central point, moving the debate out of Wonderland and into sensible colloquy.

Comparing—both economically and functionally—wind and solar with conventional generation is spurious work. Saying that the highly subsidized price of wind might, maybe, possibly become, one day, comparable to coal or natural gas may be true. But even if this happens, if, say, wind and coal prices become equivalent, paying anything for resources that yield no or little effective capacity seems deranged as a means of promoting economic recovery for the most dedicatedly modern country on the planet.

Subsidies for conventional fuels—coal, natural gas, nuclear, and hydro—make sense because they promote high capacity generation. Subsidies for wind and solar, which are, as Bryce stated, many times greater on a unit of production basis than for conventional fuels, promote pretentious power that make everything else work harder simply to stand still.

Consider the following passage from Part II of my recent paper, which is pertinent in driving this point home:

Since reliable, affordable, secure electricity production has historically required the use of many kinds of generators, each designed to perform different but complementary roles, much like instruments in an orchestra, it is not unreasonable for companies in the power business to diversify their power portfolios. Thus, investment in an ensemble of nuclear and large coal plants to provide for baseload power, along with bringing on board smaller coal and natural gas plants to engage mid and peak load, makes a great deal of sense, providing for better quality and control while achieving economies of scale.

Traditional diversified power portfolios, however, insisted upon a key common denominator: their generating machines, virtually all fueled by coal, natural gas, nuclear, and/or hydro, had high unit availability and capacity value. That is, they all could be relied upon to perform when needed precisely as required.

How does adding wind—a source of energy that cannot of itself be converted to modern power, is rarely predictable, never reliable, always changing, is inimical to demand cycles, and, most importantly, produces no capacity value—make any sense at all? Particularly when placing such a volatile brew in an ensemble that insists upon reliable, controllable, dispatchable modes of operation. As a functional means of diversifying a modern power portfolio, wind is a howler.

Language Matters

All electricity suppliers are subsidized. But conventional generation provides copious capacity while wind supplies none and solar, very little. The central issue is capacity—or its absence. Only capacity generation will drive future economic recovery. And Bryce should say so in future debates. Birds and bats, community protests, health and safety—pale in contrast to wind technology’s lack of capacity. And Bryce should say so. Ditto for any contraption fueled by dilute energy sources that cannot be converted to modern power capacity—even if they produce no carbon emissions. Clean and green sloganeering should not be conflated with effective production.

Moreover, even if the definition of clean and/or renewable technology is stretched to mean reduced or eliminated carbon emissions caused by less consumption of fossil fuels, then where is the evidence that technologies like wind and solar are responsible for doing this? When in the debate former Colorado governor Bill Ritter claimed that the wind projects he helped build in his state were reducing California’s carbon emissions, why didn’t the Bryce/Hayward team demand proof? Which is non existent.

It’s not just wind’s wispy energy density that makes conversion to modern power impossible—without having it fortified by substantial amounts of inefficiently operating fossil-fired power, virtually dedicated transmission lines, and new voltage regulation, the costs of which must collectively be calculated as the price for integrating wind into an electricity grid. It is rather wind’s continuous skittering, which destabilizes the required match between supply and demand; it must be smoothed by all those add-ons. The vast amount of land wind gobbles up therefore hosts a dysfunctional, Rube Goldbergesque mechanism for energy conversion. Bryce and his confreres would do well to aim this bullet right between the eyes.

Robert Bryce remains a champion of reasoned discourse and enlightened energy policy. He is one of the few energy journalists committed to gleaning meaningful knowledge from a haze of data and mere information. His work is a wise undertaking in the best traditions of journalism in a democracy. As he prepares for future debates—although, given the wasteland of contemporary journalism, it is a tribute to his skills that he is even invited to the table—he must cut through the chaff surrounding our politicized energy environment, communicating instead the whole grained wheat of its essentials.

Endnote: You might also enjoy my other relatively recent paper, Oxymoronic Wind (13-page PDF). It covers a lot of ground but dwells on the relationship between wind and companies swaddled in coal and natural gas, which is the case worldwide.

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** It was fascinating to note Hayward’s brief comment about China’s involvement with wind, no doubt because it seeks to increase its renewables’ manufacturing base and then export the bulk of the machines back to a gullible West. As journalist Bill Tucker said recently in a panel discussion about the future of nuclear technology on the Charlie Rose show, China (and India), evidently dedicated to achieve high levels of functional modernity, will soon lead the world in nuclear production as it slowly transitions from heavy use of coal over the next half-century.

By Barry Brook

Barry Brook is an ARC Laureate Fellow and Chair of Environmental Sustainability at the University of Tasmania. He researches global change, ecology and energy.

368 replies on “Energy debates in Wonderland”

Here you can see the total wind output of all wind turbines in Ireland, one of the windiest countries of Europe:

That is a lot of uncontrollable variability, even for a windy country with considerable geographical spreading between turbines.

It is convenient to burn natural gas to back this up. This is not the 90% CO2 cut we need to make over the next several decades.

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Diversity in any system strengthens the whole and helps that system absorb external shocks or internal stresses and allows for that system to bounce back more quickly. A diverse energy portfolio mitigates peaks and troughs between capacity and peak demand. It mitigates market volatility for commodity prices — the future of fossil fuels. It is going to take everything we have to do both, meet voracious energy need and cut Co2 emissions. As much as I love wind and solar, I know that renewables cannot do it alone, not even close.

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Cyril R. wrote:

Here you can see the total wind output of all wind turbines in Ireland … That is a lot of uncontrollable variability … It is convenient to burn natural gas to back this up.

I suppose it depends on where the demand curve is located. If all of this variability is above the demand curve, you’ll be exporting or storing a great deal of energy (and probably lowering costs for consumers and making profits as an energy utility). If below the demand curve, you’ll be drawing down hydro reservoirs (since some back-up in Ireland is hydro), importing energy from elsewhere, and spinning up NG reserves. Newer interconnection standards (low voltage ride-through requirements) and reactive power capability (doubly fed induction motors) make voltage control a non issue with wind. A megawatt is a megawatt. The back-up conundrum isn’t getting as much press these days as it did of yore (I think it was always pretty much over-blown and political in nature). Saying wind needs “back-up” is exactly the same as saying wind and solar, or any other variable energy resource, displace natural gas (or other spinning reserves) when they are generating electricity. And truth be told, private utility companies like it this way: they make lots of money from a fuel source with a high marginal cost (such as natural gas) and a transmission grid with lots of congestion (peak demand pricing). It is far less appealing to them (unless regulatory agencies looking after grid reliability mandate it) for them to turn to low marginal cost approaches for dealing with wind and solar variability: increased transmission, distributed generation, power sharing agreements on imports, storage, conservation and efficiency (aka “demand management”), better forecasting models (through pilot projects and regional integration studies) , and other approaches.

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The greens have a religion. Their religion tells them that only renewable energy is “good” and all other energy is “bad.” Their definitions of good and bad are in their minds. They are the useful idiots, if you will, of those who wish to continue the status quo of carbon-based fuels. Wind and solar are stupid little toys; they will forever remain toys. They will never power an advanced civilization. They are a waste of our economic resources, our attention and our time.

Every day that passes while we fiddle with these dead-end technologies, is another day closer to the day we cannot meet our energy demands, or push the climate over the edge.

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Mikel Lolley: Including electricity sources which add variability to your supply equation does NOT mitigate peaks and troughs between supply and demand – it exacerbates them.

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What a blanket statement ‘diversity in energy portfolio strengthens the whole’. This is not-backed-up unscientific drivel, innumerate quasi-environmentalism. Politically correct, intellectually dishonest. Meeting the demand at all times is of primary importance. Solar that is not dispatchable and is not there 80-90% of the time, gee I wonder, will this help strengthen the grid.

For scientific numerate and unbiased reading regarding energy, I’ll recommend The Capacity Factor:

http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/

Definately read the entire blog, its all good.

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Although written from an American perspective this article is applicable to Australia which has more then its fair share of fashionable madness.

Funny money schemes like a carbon tax and carbon trading,large scale wind and solar builds connected to the national grid and so on.Meanwhile the coal and gas industries enjoy protected status and any mention of nuclear draws howls of rage from the usual culprits and a curtly dismissive thumbs down from the political apparatchiks.

All this would be mildly amusing from a cynical perspective except for the fact that we are running out of time to act effectively on carbon emissions.

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Citated DV82XL:

“Wind and solar are stupid little toys; they will forever remain toys. They will never power an advanced civilization. They are a waste of our economic resources, our attention and our time.”

Well, I agree – but let’s face it: nuclear power will never do this, either. Currently the world energy consumption is covered less than 10% by nuclear power – the financial frame to change this substantially will be brutal – and probably even doubling nuclear power coverage will take 25 years or more (as it would require increase of mining capabilities – by the way very CO2 intensive, education of engineers, building of additional power plants, replacement of old power plants and may other things). So I personally don’t believe the renewable mantras as well as the nuclear mantras I can read here – actually I am pretty pessimistic about this – the only “real” solution would be that we cover 100% of our energy consumption by renewable energies (I know it will be very hard, too) – nuclear power might buy us a few decades – however, the price for it might be to high.

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I’m hopeful that with carbon tax that per-unit subsidies like REC and FiT will disappear. Ditto mandates like a 20% renewables target. The federal REC is currently worth $33 per Mwh for large scale wind. Whether capital subsidies will remain is unclear, as in a few million dollars per wind site to help with construction costs.

I note several wind developers have welcomed the carbon tax which will penalise coal. If that’s all they want well and good. However I have a sneaking suspicion that after a year or two they’ll want the subsidies as well. Maybe the backup gas gets carbon tax exemption since it’s a ‘helper’.

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the article is wrong on so many things.

wind doesn t depend on heavy subsidies any longer.

wind power can be predicted in advance.

those graphs are misleading. it looks as if people who need 16000 MW had installed exactly that capacity of wind and now are getting nervous because they rarely get the full power!
all these graphs need to include an “average” line and then we would see that at about 25% actual power wind provides all energy needed at about half the time.

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BTW lest you think the idea of gas being ‘honorary renewable’ is too far fetched there is a precedent. Heat pump water heaters get a solar credit w.r.t. resistive water heaters. Trouble is the devices may reside in a darkened cellar and never see sunlight yet are deemed ‘solar’. As Orwell predicted the era of doublespeak has arrived.

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http://iprd.org.uk/?p=6877#more-6877

Jon and Barry: a solar utopia paper (by david and peter schwartzman) with some differential equations. The idea is to use solar to make solar, after a short period of fossil fuel transition.

Please critique, especially the use of EROEI by all renewables folk.

I have not read this yet but will get to it.

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DV82XL
I see that, now you have driven the moderator away with your petulance, you have reverted to your usual incivility and excessive language.

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I disagree for many reasons. First, wind is sufficiently predicatable that is backed by cold thermal units with 4–7 hour startup times accoring to this IEA Wind Power Study

Click to access T2493.pdf

Indeed a regional wind farm operator is switching from BPA hydro backup to a combination of other hydro, natgas and coal backup because of newly imposed constraints on the operation of BPA’s system of dams.

Currently the BPA balancing authority area runs ~12.5 GW of hydro, ~4.5 GW of thermal (which includes one NPP) and ~3.3 GW of wind. The assemblage works fine, it is only the econmics which are at issue.

As I worked out the costings, wind properly backed by new pump hydro is currenlt more expensive than new nuclear. Wind backed by natgas depends upon the natgas price, but using current prices [which do not tax carbon] is noticably less expensive than new nuclear.

By far the least expensive option is what is called energy efficiency. All forms of new generation are more expensive than the existing equipment; when it beomes unservicable and is replaced the cost of electric power from the grid will increase.

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@msit – It takes 9kWh to 33 kWh/kg U to get 1 kilogram of Uranium. At 45 Gigawatt days per ton of Uranium the amount of power from one kilogram of uranium is 360,000 kWh. The CO2 burden from mining uranium is thus very small, and this is not counting newer reactors that can burn the current stockpile of used fuel now above ground. In the long run, uranium may not be mined for almost a century after those new designs are launched. That uranium mining is very CO2 intensive is pure rubbish, for which I can guarantee you cannot provide a credible reference for.

The cost of new nuclear power stations is grossly inflated by regulatory burdens that are not necessary, and this has been discussed at some length on this site in the past.

To all of you that support renewable energy:

Some of you have gotten so fascinated with abstract renewable power generation schemes that you have ignored the physics of how these things actually work in the real world. You are not taking into account things like the electric power infrastructure, among other things, and this can lead you grossly astray.

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Sod,
Without storage your ‘average line’ is imaginary, draw it if you like, but the peaks and troughs will still be the reality.

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Can I once again point out the foolishness of comparing energy efficiency with any type of energy generation?

If energy efficiency is worth doing, OK, let’s do it. It will happen to some extent anyway and can be encouraged in various ways by the policies of government.

BUT – it has nothing to do with our choice of electricity generation. All it determines is what level of generation we might require, and I can GUARANTEE that globally we will need more electricity in the future than today. If we move significantly to electric vehicles, electricity demand will increase dramatically everywhere.

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Unfortunately energy debates in Wonderland are rife. In a recent opinion piece in the Guardian ironically titled “Who to trust on nuclear?” one Dr Paul Dorfman made this claim

In 2009 alone Germany installed solar photovoltaic systems with capacity equivalent to approximately four nuclear reactors.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/13/nuclear-power-sustainable-energy

Apparently Germany installed 3.9 GW of PV in 2009. The claim is, in all but the most literal sense, flagrant nonsense and anybody that can not recognize that has no business pontificating on energy policy.

But this does in fact raise the critical issue of trust. Significant portions of public opinion informed by various levels of knowledge ranging from pure instinct to expert, simply do not believe a lot of the extravagant claims made for renewables. In the real world of politics, these extravagant claims become interwoven with the science of climate change thus fueling climate denialism.

IMHO, public acceptance of the science of climate change is inextricably linked to debate over future energy production and every opportunity should be taken to drag that latter out of Wonderland. Pieces such as Dorfman’s, no matter how well meaning, contribute to the problem.

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My second point of disagreement with this essay is with regard to CO2 foregone. Suppose wind’s capacity factor is 32% [which is the value used for the Columbia Basin]. Except for CO2 generating in making the materials and constructing the wind farm, that is 32% CO2-free power right there. Backing with natgas saves something over backing with coal for the remaining 68% for a simplified (flat-load) design. Ideally the backing is done by some CO2 free storage scheme, but the prospects for wide applicability of that appear to depend upon fortuitous geography and other factors which is not widely available.

For example, the Columbia Basin has plenty of room for more of those 32% wind farms; the land owners actively want the wind farms for the steady income provided. How to back more wind farms (assuming the future demand for more electricity is assured)? Well, there are mountains to the south and even bigger ones to the west. There is even possibly suitable relief to the north and east. However, all the land is already spoken for and I know of no possibilty for more than the two small pumped hydro stations already in the region. So putting in another requires some land use change. To do so might well take extensive litigation before settled.

I conclude that more CCGTs will be purchased instead.

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Joffan, on 21 April 2011 at 9:54 AM — Good point, but greater energy efficiency means less need for new generation requirements. Of course, one has to have a suitable level to begin with. India, for example, does not and is starting on a plan to build 44 new NPPs. Good for them.

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@ Ms Perps, on 21 April 2011 at 9:29 AM

Ms Perps, as a seasoned and prolific contributor to this site, knows very well that a personal attack on DV82XL is not in accordance with this site’s rules.

Both DV8 and Ms Perps have contributed much of value. I am sure that I am not alone in wishing for much more.

Everybody, please show restraint as though the honourary moderator was still present.

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Sod,

Without a MRET and a government garuantee to clear ‘all’ renewable energy on the national market, it would fail. Not saying this is what we want to see, but certainly it’s not correct to say that is survives without an artifical (and required) leg up from the Government.

What seems to pass by Australian wind enthusiasts is the load following in the EU – wind is best when heating is required in the winter peak. Australia the complete opposite, we need to meek peaks in summer. Electranet say wind can supply 3% of South Australia’s energy on the hottest 3 days a year. What a waste if we have to overbuild other tech anyway to meet this peak. At some point as old plants are decommissioned the capital raising realities of unused standby will come to the fore.

Why build these great big coal/gas backups if the ‘baseload myth’ they require to operate financially can’t be garuanteed.

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“Apparently Germany installed 3.9 GW of PV in 2009. The claim is, in all but the most literal sense, flagrant nonsense and anybody that can not recognize that has no business pontificating on energy policy. ”

While your rebuttal is in the most literal sense inaccurate as well, Germany DOUBLED that install capacity in 2010, and has DOUBLED it almost every year, even if you give a similar capacity factor to Massaschussets of .15 that is more than a 1GW nuclear reactor working at 100% capacity.

“The idea is to use solar to make solar, after a short period of fossil fuel transition.”

Ever hear of a vonn neumman machine? in theory it would land on a beach, use its own PV to refine silicon from silica to make more PV, expand refinery, expand manufacturing indefinitely and eventually it covers the planet with new vonn neumman machines.

THAT IS SCALE. Nuclear does not come close to that since the fuel is more finite than solar irradiation and silicon. And granted it would only operate during the day, but it is always day somewhere on earth.

“The cost of new nuclear power stations is grossly inflated by regulatory burdens that are not necessary, and this has been discussed at some length on this site in the past. ”

Obviously, when people talked of energy too cheap to meter they were talking about completely unsafe nuclear, where even cars ran on nuclear power. Imagine trying to spin that.

As for the OP, I have always argued that under continental scales wind energy balances out, yes the capacity factor is lower but it is still a budget problem, however for a country the size of Germany to have practically no wind at certain hours makes me pause. Unless it adds storage it has the same problems as solar in becoming a baseload. Lets see how their new offshore wind farms perform.

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@DV82XL:

Well, first of all, you initially said it is CO2-free, now it is small.

“The cost of new nuclear power stations is grossly inflated by regulatory burdens that are not necessary, and this has been discussed at some length on this site in the past.”

And even if this is/might/may be true (I mean this completely neutral) you won’t change it easily or quickly – it is the reality you have to face (thats all I said).

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It isn’t quite correct to claim that wind generates no capacity value. I assume by capacity value that Boone is referring to capacity credit. This depends on how the network operator assess the wind capacity in his/her network. In South Australia the NEM applies a capacity credit of 8% for wind.

The IEA has assessed wind capacity credits in various OECD countries and suggested capacity credits between 5% (Germany) and 20% (Minnesota). http://www.ieawind.org/AnnexXXV/Publications/W82.pdf

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Ms. Perps and DV8XL,
While nobody expects you to agree on very much, you are both valued contributors to this excellent web site.

I hope you will continue to promote your view points. How do I weigh your arguments and those of other thoughtful contributors?

When it comes to energy policy, I find the teachings of Peter Drucker (“Management” and several other books) particularly helpful. Drucker shows that a “Market Test” is the preferred method for comparing technologies and businesses.

When governments manipulate the marketplace to promote one technology over another they are attempting to promote their judgements over that of the market. With very few exceptions the results are disastrous as with Lysenkoism and its modern offspring.

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“When it comes to energy policy, I find the teachings of Peter Drucker (“Management” and several other books) particularly helpful. Drucker shows that a “Market Test” is the preferred method for comparing technologies and businesses.

When governments manipulate the marketplace to promote one technology over another they are attempting to promote their judgements over that of the market. With very few exceptions the results are disastrous as with Lysenkoism and its modern offspring.”

The market failed, the hole we are in is because of the market. Even if you believe in nuclear energy it was the collapse of the price of oil and by extension nat-gas that killed the industry in the US for 3 decades.

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@Environmentalist

While your rebuttal is in the most literal sense inaccurate as well, Germany DOUBLED that install capacity in 2010, and has DOUBLED it almost every year, even if you give a similar capacity factor to Massaschussets of .15 that is more than a 1GW nuclear reactor working at 100% capacity.

The claim was not about the rate of growth PV, the claim was explicitly regarding the ability of PV to substitute for nuclear power. The claim was nonsense and remains nonsense whatever way you spin it. It is this evasive nonsense about energy that you have just provided yet another example of that destroys public trust in advocates of strong action to combat climate change.

Germany has a nuclear capacity of about 20GWe. To produce the same amount of electricity you would need of the order of 150 GW of PV capacity. How the grid would cope with that remains highly problematical to put it mildly.

As for self replicating machines tiling the planet with PV – oh please!

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“Germany has a nuclear capacity of about 20GWe. To produce the same amount of electricity you would need of the order of 150 GW of PV capacity. ”

Now that indeed would be impressive!!!

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@gallopingcamel : Governments manipulate/skew the market against nuke power by their excessive regulations.
@ ms perps and DV , comments from both of you are generally lucid and rational, please kiss and make up.
@ Everybody , here in Oz the coal seam gas industry is developing quite a negative outlook especially the fracking process. Even the shock jocks are giving them a hard time. Wind turbine parks are also on the nose with the locals. So once again Nuclear is the ONLY answer.

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@gallopingcamel

There are plenty of examples of governments doing things better than private enterprise and supposedly completely free markets (which incidentally, have been something of a curiosity in the history of capitalism). A classic example is health care but you could also look at something like the Snowy Mountains Scheme is Australia. From all accounts this was an exceptionally well executed very large civil engineering project – the largest ever completed in Australia. To this day it remains operated by a government owned corporation. Would it ever have happened if left to private enterprise?

Would nuclear power have gone as far as it has without very substantial state involvement?

Given the imperative to move to clean energy at the earliest possible opportunity, the only realistic approach is “Whatever works” and jettison the ideological stuff.

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greenpeace has ordered a study, which shows that several alternative (electric) energy sources get LESS subsidies today that coal or nuclear, especially when you factor in secondary costs like climate change.

even solar energy gets LESS subsidies than nuclear got in the 70s.

we are starting only now with flexible energy prices. so there is an incentive to produce energy at exactly the times, when the wind output picture above shows a gap. so far, investors would place their windmills wherever it would produce the most electricity. now it makes sense to place it, where it might produce a little less, but more at important times.

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sorry, i gave the same link twice.

this one shows the real cost of energy (to society)

the one i linked above only shows subsidies.

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Solar gets less subsidies because its contribution is much smaller than nuclear.

Subsidies per kWh are very low for coal and nuclear, very high for solar.

Some of you guys need a lot more of The Capacity Factor:

http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2010/03/myth-wind-farm-developments-rely-on.html

http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2010/02/german-solar-industry-protesting.html

http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2010/04/how-much-subsidy-for-german-solar-power.html

http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2009/08/spanish-solar-power-market-crashes.html

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@ environmentalist, Germany gets 0.11 capacity factor, not 0.15. Germany is far from the equator. It is energy that is not there 89% of the time.

I can predict with 100% accuracy that tonight there will be zero solar power. Gee does that solve the problem?

It does not. In the end you have to provide the electricity on demand, every second, minute, hour, day, week, month, year.

Germany electric demand does not match solar output:

http://energyfromthorium.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2689

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the subsidies in the graph above are per KWh. they are less than what nuclear got when it was introduced, even for solar alone.

you are also wrong about “zero solar power (at night)”. while electric power still is very limited, there are plenty of warm water systems on German roofs now, that will provide solar heated water even for your late night shower.

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ps: looking at demand, we have to understand that our system has developted to use the useless night time electric power produced by big energy plants that can t be stopped.
this will change back, with flexible prices.

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@sod:
Here is the greenpeace study on nuclear subsidies (its in german):

Click to access Atomsubventionsstudie_Update_2010_01.pdf

It was one of the first things I read that made me lose my trust in anti-nuclear (I switched side from somewhat anti to pro). The problem is there definition of subsidies and nuclear. They include carbon emission certificates as subsidies for nuclear. They include reasearch on fusion. They include the cost for the LHC at CERN as subsidies for nuclear (it seemed to me they just included all nuclear physics). They include as subsidies, that the companies don’t have to pay taxes for the money they have to put back for deconstruction (seems natural to me). They include lose of taxes because nukes don’t use fossile fuels. They include profit by imperfect competition on the market.

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a narrow definition of subsidies favours nuclear and coal.

the external cost of nuclear is taken to be the highest of coal. i think that is a very good compromise.

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I continue to be amazed by some pro-nuclear advocates attacks on wind and other renewable energy contributions;
Wind: variable over a small geographic area(ie Denmark or Ireland or Northern Germany) all <5% land area of US.
Wind: low energy density?? who cares if the resource is X100 larger than present world demand.
hydro: has a declining contribution of electricity production in US- so does nuclear, surely this is not an argument against their use..
Geothermal: will not scale to supply 100% of US electricity- but could it supply 20% or 50%?
Solar: low capacity factor- but a lot of this is available during peak demand.
All forms of non-FFenergy have problems and limitations and it is unlikely that and one renewable energy source or nuclear is going to totally replace all FF use in the next 50years, but ALL have merits and ALL can make a significant contribution to reducing FF use.

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Neil Howes, you can never do just one thing. Build wind turbines and your power is not there 75% of the time. Energy storage too expensive at the scale required, and has poor learning curves. So you burn fossil fuel preferably a flexible natural gas plant.

Ergo wind is a fossil lock-in. This means it kills like fossil fuel kills, and there is GHG and there is energy dependence etc.

Nuclear avoids this. You don’t need backup, in fact there is perfect synergy with electric vehicles as you can use excess nighttime baseload to charge them up.

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@msit -Electricity produced by nuclear energy doesn’t produce CO2, and life-cycle CO2 production is on a par with wind. There is nothing else lower.

The whole point of sites like this is to inform people on certain subjects with a view to driving political change, both on climate, and nuclear energy issues.

We have discussed both of these topics at length on these pages, and you are not bringing anything new to the table other than your unsupported opinions. I suggest you review previous threads on these matters, or provide new references to back your assertions. Unsupported opinion here carries little weight.

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Sod, if you are suggesting that aluminium manufacturing plants shut down whenever it ain’t sunny, I think you should visit such a facility and talk to the plant manager.

This is where solar and wind enthusiasts lose grip with reality; many industries need round the clock energy and they need it to turn on when they require it. It is not acceptable to send night shifts back to their families without money because we’ve run out of sunshine, or to cut streetlights, or stop electric trains etc. What will happen is, the industries will go to other countries that do appreciate a stable low cost electric supply. You lose jobs.

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@DB82XL: Well, the post of yours I initially replied to, does not bring any particular new arguments, either – thats what made it reply to it (after reading this blog for long while quietly).

And to fix or turn around our climate problem “really’, we need CO2 neutral – “as low as wind energy” is simply not enough.

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@msit :
France went from marginal nuclear power to 80% (the rest is hydro and a few fossil peak plants) in 20 years, from initial decision to effective start of the last power plant. It didn’t even use a domestic technology, as it licensed its reactors from Westinghouse. The French are not special : most reasonably developed countries can emulate this effort, it is just a question of political will.

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quokka,
As you point out, sometimes the “Market” is not going to help. It is hard to imagine projects like the Hoover dam being undertaken without strong government support.

Likewise the nuclear power industry stands or falls according to the whims of jurisdictions. The “Market” only begins to operate once governments have set the rules. As we are seeing today, some countries apply disincentives to NPP construction while subsidizing Wind, Wave, Solar and PV.

Governments have a proper role in energy policy but they court disaster when they try to override the “Market Test”.

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Barry – thanks for the guest post, and thanks Jon for the post. @dv82xl – thanks for the upthread comment that gives the energy required to obtain uranium. I note that the numbers are for the conventional solid fuel LWRs and PWRs since IFRs would give a gigawatt-year of electricity per tonne of uranium (if I’m clear on the numbers). The numbers imply a fuel EROEI of between 10,000 and 40,000. Even for the inefficient reactors.

We built our fossil fuel economy on EROEIs that started out around 100 for early oil production but are now down to around 3 for sources like the Athabasca tar sands. With numbers like these, why is there a debate?

dv8, if you have a link that goes into more detail on the energy required to mine and mill uranium, I’d like to see it. (It may even be already here on BNC; I haven’t checked.)

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Mr. Boone cites David Owen’s New Yorker piece on the Jevons paradox.

Owen argues that the reason we (for example) drive so much is that cars are efficient and convenient, have good roads available, and can be fueled cheaply, and therefore (according to Owen), to reduce fuel use, we should tear up our roads and replace our Civic hybrids with Model A Fords.

If we extend this ridiculous argument to electricity production the answer is obvious: to defeat “the Jevon’s effect” we need a grid which supplies variable amounts of electricity at random times and great cost.

A reasonable reply to Owen’s article here: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/letters/2011/01/17/110117mama_mail2

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David B. Benson, on 21 April 2011 at 11:52 AM said:

For example, the Columbia Basin has plenty of room for more of those 32% wind farms

The wind in the Pacific Northwest blows best in the spring when we have plenty of water to run the hydrodams and not much demand because we don’t really need much in the way of heating and cooling and neither does any of our neighbors.

Bonneville Power has ‘over generation’ headaches now. I.E. Good rain plus good wind during off peak results in plenty of electricity but nothing to do with it. We are already experiencing ‘displacing hydro’ with wind.

If June 2010 Bonneville Power ‘spilled’ 745,000 MWh worth of water do to lack of demand.

Click to access final-report-columbia-river-high-water-operations.pdf

The value of the wind generated during this period was zero. We can build more windmills, but the percentage of the time the value will be zero will just increases. The law of diminishing returns comes in to play.

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The wind in the Pacific Northwest blows best in the spring when we have plenty of water to run the hydrodams and not much demand because we don’t really need much in the way of heating and cooling and neither does any of our neighbors.

Hydro Quebec found the same thing happening with its ‘wind-and-water’ plans – the wind wasn’t blowing at times convenient for saving reservoir inventories.

The issue becomes more acute when dams have irrigation and/or flood control functions as well as hydro power generation. In these cases integrating wind is even harder.

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@dv8 – thanks for the link; sites like world-nuclear.org are required reading and homework for anyone interested in energy. Thanks for all your posts on the blogs and forums, and your relentless rationality. (Just don’t go all the way to nnadir’s energy level… : D)

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The problem with renewable critics is outdated information, yes its intermittent, but storing energy is actually EASIER than generating it. Should those costs be added in the watt/$ equation? maybe but its best to keep it as is for historical reference.

A flywheel, hydro storage, pneumatic storage, even biogas (which is actually good for the environment since CO2 is better than its stock methane). All of them are perfectly scalable (except for biogas), they are just more expensive.

Lets start with the least expensive, upgrading older dams for variable production, energy loss is ~0% because no water is pumped, its not scalable though.

Creating artificial reservoirs for hydro storage, 80% efficient, they are built today to buy during base and sell at peak, scalable.

pneumatic storage in drained hydrocarbon reservoirs, similar to the above.

pneumatic storage underseas, the cutting edge of technology, perfectly scalable.

Flywheels, best for solar where intermittent is more cyclical, they are technically not storage but are more like capacitors. a big enough flywheel could in theory provide baseload power. perfectly scalable.

Do all of them add to the cost per watt? sure, but it beats nuclear disasters and the waste problem which is never factored in with nuclear costs. Not to mention that first solar is currently at 0.75 $ a watt with CdTe and predicting 0.50 $/watt before the decade is over it certainly factors in quite nicely.

As reference here is BASELOAD solar power you can have TODAY for your own home

http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=systems_off_grid

Lowest price 2.82$/watt WITHOUT SUBSIDIES considering most of you put peak load solar at 7-8$/watt (and ignore the externalities) then its no wonder you are pro-nuclear

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@Charles

Well, France is admittedly one of countries with the lowest CO2 emission per person, because of nuclear power. Still, in the entire energy mix, France still has to cover ~50% of its entire energy consumption by fossil energies:

Click to access mix_fr_en.pdf

Additionally, France is a political very stable country and economically powerful – i.e. it has exactly the key factors to make such a focused decision to change one of the major energy resources into a certain direction. However, you rarely find this situation in the rest of the world – but as we talk about a global problem here, you have to take care about the rest of the world. Also, in absolute numbers France still belongs to the 20 countries in the world with highest CO2 emission rate per person, even though they cover energy generation by almost 80% nuclear energy where it is possible (they even have to switch off some of their plants over the weekend because otherwise base load would be to high in the net). With a very pessimistic view France is the perfect example for that nuclear power will not substantially help for fixing our global energy problem.

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Environmentalist, please read your own source better.

2.82$/Watt system has only half an hour of storage.. pathetic.

So you get 0.11 capacity factor in Germany using this system, assuming zero losses in the battery, you have a system that costs 2.82/0.11 = $ 25/Watt average. There are good reasons this system isn’t popular. Its expensive as hell. Not bad if you’re off grid and the alternative is a dirty diesel generator. No use for grid connected power.

This system costs over 8000 bucks and gets you around 0.3 kW of average power, tiny amount of power when the sun has just set and no power into the evening and night. Massively degraded electricity reliability (my grid’s reliability last year was 100%, not 1 second outage) at large cost.

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As for pneumatic storage, this burns natural gas. The heat storage version (adiabatic, no gas combustion) is not yet proven on any scale, not even prototype scale, and has much large capital cost.

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As for First Solar, they are *not* at 75 cents per Watt at the SYSTEM level.

I have previously calculated the Sarnia Solar Project which is using First Solar technology. Here it is:

…the recent Sarnia solar farm’s cost. 400 million for a 60 MW expansion (to 80, from 20). 6.666/kWe nameplate. According to the PVWATTS this gets less than 1200 kWh/kWp, so 0.14 capacity factor in this location (mediocre solar region). 47 dollars per Watt continuous equivalents. Using the levelised cost calculator this gets 40 cents/kWh even with cheap money 5%. Using a more reasonable 8% pushes the cost up to 52 cents per kWh. Using the anti-nukes high 14 percent discount rate, 80 cents per kWh. This is from First Solar which is supposed to be the cheapest solar manufacturer on the planet…

You can do your own levelised cost calculations from NREL calculator here:

http://www.nrel.gov/analysis/lcoe/lcoe.html

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@David B. Benson, on 21 April 2011 at 11:55 AM said:

“Joffan, on 21 April 2011 at 9:54 AM — Good point, but greater energy efficiency means less need for new generation requirements. Of course, one has to have a suitable level to begin with. India, for example, does not and is starting on a plan to build 44 new NPPs. Good for them.”

David, this is silly. Greater efficiency means just that, you get more out with what you have. It does not, and cannot, account for *growth*, which is exactly what sunk California in 2000. You think India has “growing population”? You better believe it. No amount of efficiency can account for not only an increase in population, but an increase in population that wants to use more energy!

The increase demand *per capita* for each human on earth is not going away. We need efficiency since waste, the opposite of efficiency, is bad and expensive.

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“2.82$/Watt system has only half an hour of storage.. pathetic. ”

24 * 225 Amps.h * 6 V = 32.4 kWh do you run a factory at home?

“So you get 0.11 capacity factor in Germany using this system, assuming zero losses in the battery, you have a system that costs 2.82/0.11 = $ 25/Watt average. There are good reasons this system isn’t popular. Its expensive as hell. Not bad if you’re off grid and the alternative is a dirty diesel generator. No use for grid connected power.”

So now batteries and inverters are 10 times more expensive in Germany? the actual costs of the panels are 1.79 $/Watt since its Cristalline Silicone.

The reason why I posted it is because despite being the most EXPENSIVE solution for solar due to c-Si and economies of scale (small inverters AND batteries instead of hydro) its still a much smaller figure than the lies of 7-8$ a watt.

“As for First Solar, they are *not* at 75 cents per Watt at the SYSTEM level.”

Its cents per watt to make, once its commoditized that will mostly be the system level price for peak solar, right now they charge whatever the competition does. Thin film does not require much infrastructure or labor. Inverters cost/watt would scale with size.

sun electronics used to sell first solar thin film at 96 cents a watt, of course they don’t anymore for backlog reasons perhaps.

Thanks for the LCOE calculator.

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@Sean De boo, 21 April, 1.48pm
SA has a very high peak demand relative to off-peak thats why it runs 2,000MW gas fired power at 30% capacity. The 800MW wind doesnt help meet some of those peak demand periods, but CST with a few hours thermal storage would be a valuable addition. Meanwhile, wind power saves on NG consumption. Adding nuclear power to meet all of SA’s baseload demand of 1000MW would still require an additional 2200MW of peak capacity, so without solar there is likely to be a continued demand for OCGT
Australia has very large hydro storage, some of which has to be release water during summer for irrigation. Additional turbine capacity and transmission lines would help, but may not be economic because these high demand periods are only infrequent, and use very little NG.
Like many comments on this post, wind is being criticized for not doing something it was never designed to do( ie supply peak demand), while ignoring the fact that it is doing what it was built to do( ie reduce FF use).

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Oops! My computer crashed and sent a just-started contribution.

@ enviromentalist, 3:01 this morning:

Cyril and DV8 set you straight about several factual issues with your post. Please remember that BNC is a site for science-based endeavour.

All claims made should be accompanied by links or references to places where the facts behind the statements can be checked. Your claims about 50 c per watt solar, cheap storage which turns out to be 30 minutes only and so on do nothing for your cause.

There are plenty of readers here who really, truly, deep down, would like solar and wind and geothermal and new technology storage to be maximised and who would welcome proper comparisons with FF and nuclear which demonstrate just how and where this can be done.

By spouting nonsense figures, you have effectively disappointed both sides of the discussion. The pro-nuclear camp experience the old sinking feeling of “Not again… how many more times must we deal with this crud?” and those who seek greater economies in and uptake of solar etc see their cause destroyed at the first hurdle by short informative contributions from DV8 or others, who will always expose fallacies in weak arguments.

So, Enviro, if you really want to change the world for the better, please stick to verifiable facts, take care to fairly compare like with like, don’t exaggerate the benefit of a no-grid, no storage, undersized, can’t work in the dark, unreliable, unschedulable, low capacity, high cost solar dream by trying to compare it with fully costed, reliable, safe, high availability systems based on something else, just because for ten minutes your comparison looks good… to you.

After 10 minutes, your message will lie in tatters and your cause will have, again, been set back, thanks entirely to your own lack of rigour.

In the long run, and we are all interested in the long run, it is rigour which stands tall. Rigour. Research. Citations. Analysis.

So, please, if you do have reliable references to 50 cent per kW solar or great big new storage at a reasonable price, bring them here, but please keep it rational and check citations carefully and then include them in your message.

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@Cyrl R, 21 April, 9.06pm,
build wind turbines and your power is not there 75% of the time
The link you provided showing Ireland’s wind output( a very small geographic area compared to the major US grids) shows that some wind power is available approx 90% of the time and just eyeballing is producing more than average output about 40-50% of the time. I think you completely miss-understand what a capacity factor of 0.25 for wind really means, it is not the same as nuclear or gas turbine power where they are generally on 100% or off.

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I think the system ate my post here it is again.

The system I gave has 24 batteries meaning

24*225Amp.h*6V = 32.4 kWh

Unless he uses 65 kW at any hour this is NOT half an hour

http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=pv_systems&id=1251&type=OFFG

The system linked above is $2.91/watt but it is an off-grid solution, meaning it is the most inefficient solution because inverters cost/watt AND chemical batteries makes it THE most expensive solution, this was quoted because people STILL use 7-8$/watt which is so out of date you might as well start quoting “too cheap to meter”

“So you get 0.11 capacity factor in Germany using this system, assuming zero losses in the battery, you have a system that costs 2.82/0.11 = $ 25/Watt average. There are good reasons this system isn’t popular. Its expensive as hell. Not bad if you’re off grid and the alternative is a dirty diesel generator. No use for grid connected power.”

This is incorrect you are applying the capacity factor to the entire system, when batteries and inverters should never be included in the price, the real capacity factor should be added to the real cost of the panels quoted which is $1.79/watt since its c-Si

http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1191

First solar claiming $.75/watt today
http://investor.firstsolar.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=201491&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1532742&highlight=

Predicting $0.50/watt in the near future
http://beta.wfs.org/content/smaller-faster-cheaper-solar-powers-moores-law

Once its comoditized this will be the considerable bulk of solar costs since the rest scales well. I am more of a fan of a-Si but clearly CdTe is the champ of cheap.

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msit:

Also, in absolute numbers France still belongs to the 20 countries in the world with highest CO2 emission rate per person,

Not according to WP … whether GHG in general or CO2 in particular, France is well down the list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions_per_capita
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita

That being said, its emissions are still too high, the coal has to go.

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@Neil Howes – To understand why utility scale wind power doesn’t work, you have to have a bit of an understanding about how electricity in general works. The electrical system is composed of two parts, generation and delivery. Generation, as the name implies consists of facilities that create electricity from some fuel, whether it is nuclear, fossil fuel, wind or solar. The delivery system consists of all of the wires between the generators and the consumers.

There are two types of generators:

Dispatchable: The dispatchable power plant is one whose output can be scheduled for a certain time, to assume a given load, for a specific interval.

Non-Dispatchable: These power plants produce electricity according to nobodies schedule. They cannot be brought online and offline as demand dictates so the energy that is produced by this type of power plant must be absorbed into the system willy-nilly.

The electric grid companies control the dispatchable generators and set them to produce according to demand. As a non-dipatchable source of energy, wind power is the least reliable. The output of wind turbines is dependant on the wind speed so varies minute by minute. A wind turbine that produces any amount of electricity 30% of the time is considered a good producer and wind turbines don’t produce electricity at the times when demand for electricity is highest – hot summer days and cold winter nights. Typically, there is little if any wind at these times. The unreliability of wind power poses the following problems:

Other plants have to be kept in what is called Spinning Reserve. What this means is that other power plants have to continue operating and burning fuel even though they may not be producing any electricity. Not one power plant has been decommissioned as a result of wind power installations – ANYWHERE. Plants in spinning reserve consure almost as much fuel as when they are operating since steam pressure must be maintained at a level to cover the entire production of wind plants.

Wind turbines come on line whenever the wind blows strong enough. The variability of the amount of energy produced means that the grid providers have to continually adjust dispatchable power plants up and down. This constant variation of supply reduces the reliability of the electrical grid since it is more difficult for grid providers to determing supply at any given time. Further, wind turbines, to some extent, control the grid providers rather than the other way around.

Cycling steam plants causes them to run less efficiently and creates thermal stress in the plant. Wind power increases the cycling required at steam plants. This reduces the service life of a steam plant and causes more fuel to be burnt by that plant per unit of energy produced.

Construction of more efficient Combined Cycle power plants gets put aside. This is due to the fact that combined cycle plants can’t respond as quickly to changes in demand as old style steam plants can. This means that more efficient, cleaner technologies are not being used because they are incompatible with wind power.

It is the inability to store electricity at utility scale that causes these problems. Does that mean that all wind power doesn’t work? The answer to that question is NO. Small scale wind power works very well because on a small scale, electricity can be stored in batteries. If it doesn’t take a lot of batteries to keep an application functioning, the wind doesn’t have to be blowing at the time the power is consumed- only that the wind blows enough over time to keep the batteries charged. But this cannot be scaled to contribute anything but grief to the grid because efficient grid-scale storage doesn’t exist.

Every single one of the schemes out there to store energy in large quantities sinks huge amounts of power – this means that you only get a percentage out of the energy that you put in. This loss is significant and drives capacity factors down to the point where these systems are not cost effective.

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@ Neil:

“nuclear or gas turbine power … are generally on 100% or off.”

Neil does not know what he is talking about.

Nuclear power stations have control rods for a purpose. Partial insertion of same results in decreased heat generation in the core. That’s what they are there for.

Decreased heat generation in the core results in decreased steam output… thus decreased loads. Nuclear power is not generally thought of as load-following because it is not capable of rapid output changes, but it is certainly able to load follow to a certain extent.

Worse, is the cas eof OCGT’s, which can load follow throughout their operating range, just like the load on a jet engine can be throttled up or back by the pilot in an instant. GT’s most certainly are not either “ON” or “OFF”.

To complete this picture, i will mention CCGT’s and conventional coal fired power stations.

CCGT is slightly less flexible than OCGT due to the steam side of the plant, typically a third or so of the total capacity of a CCGT station. The jet engines at the core are just as capable as OCGT’s of being wound up and down. The steam side is able to be loaded and unloaded in like manner to any other steam boiler, at a rate of the order of 2 or 3 percent per minute throughout its operating range. A notional 600MW, 2-unit CCGT station might thus be able to be unloaded or run up, within its operating range of about 150MW to 600MW, by as much as 300MW in double quick time, with the steam side following at 4 or 5 MW per minute. What does this mean in practice? In anticipation of a morning peak, a CCGT might be brought on line and run up to 200MW an hour in advance, during the shoulder period, operated within the 200 to 400 MW range during the 2 hours of the peak and then backed off to, say, 300MW through the day intil the eveniong peak, for which it is available if required to provide up to 600MW, ie it represents a “rolling reserve” of 300MW through the daytime.

Coal fired units have similar performance capabilities. A typical notional 600MW unit may be able to load-follow through a range of 200 to 600MW. It can follow the load at a rate of 20MW/min up or down or even faster, so it is able to follow 400MW of load within a period as short as 20 minutes. Of course, the rate of unloading may be even greater than stated above. These notional unload rates have been selected from my own experience of real steam generators to avoid needing to dump steam via safety valves. The boiler is ramped down to match the load on the turbine, by control of the rate of adding fuel to the furnace and with minimal efficiency loss.

The idea that generation using steam is not controllable is as ridiculous as any notion that Stevenson’s Rocket could only stand still or run flat out. Even that historic steam engine needed a governor to match work done by the engine with the load desired by the driver and the stoker needed the skill to feed wood or coal to the firebox at the desired rate.

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harrywr2, on 22 April 2011 at 1:19 AM — Thank you for the link to the report on last June’s BPA woes. The resolution is that BPA will refuse to allow any wind genration [for which BPA is the balancing authority] during future such high flow periods; looks to me as if we’ll have one this coming spring runoff.

In response, one big wind farm operator is changing the balancing agent for his wind turbines. BPA will no longer do it and instead a combination of non-BPA hydro, natgas and even two coal burners will be the backup. [This would not have happened with a sane incentive policy, but as it is he’ll pay the backup a little not to generate and maybe even pay customers a bit while still making money while doing so; the $$ comes out of your state tax revenues, mine as well.]

For this to work there has to be enough transmission available. That’s not so clear during these high flow periods. But that isn’t stopping a new, Google sponsored 845(?) MW wind farm forom being developede at Arlington, OR. The claim is that Southern California Edison (SCE) will buy the power, so that will have to go over the HVDC to southern California where perhaps SCE will act as balancing agent. As the BPA report indicates, it was completely loaded during last June. So maybe this new development won’t be able to generate during such high water periods either; I suppose we’ll find out.

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DV82XL, on 22 April 2011 at 11:23 AM — Not around here or in Germany. If you had bothered to read the IAEA wind study you would not have written a comment with so many factual errors.

(1) All grids have spinning reserves irrespective of the mix of generation types.

(2) The Germans back their wind with cold — I say again, cold — thermal with 4–7 hour startup times.

(3) Around here CCGTs are the preferred method of backing wind when hydro is not available. One has recently be purchased for precisely that reason and another has just entered in a backing agreement with a large wind farm operator. In addition two 600 MW coal burners [to eventually be replaced with CCGTs] are also used to back wind in some circumstances.

(4) It is rare to enter into a reserve agreement with a wind farm, but it has been done in combination with a OCGT. The advantage of reserve wind is that [when the wind is blowing], power can be developed right away. This means the OCGT can be left cold and restarted in about 20 seconds when needed; otherwise the OCGT needs to burn a little natgas to be left spinning.

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@John Bennetts, 22April 11.35am.
I didnt say nuclear power is not capable of a range of outputs but GENERALLY operate ON or OFF, so a capacity factor of 0.92 means they are operating at ABOUT 92% of the time an off line ABOUT 8%.
In contrast a wind farm operating with a CF of 0.25 will be producing some power MOST of the time, but at a lot less that 100% capacity.. It does NOT mean a wind farm produces NO power 75% of the time, as stated by Cyrl R

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Further to what John Bennetts wrote above wrt to load following nuclear power. From the Areva web site:

Load follow: between 60 and 100% nominal output, the EPR™ reactor can adjust it power output at a rate of 5% nominal power per minute at constant temperature, preserving the service life of the components and of the plant.

http://www.areva.com/EN/global-offer-419/epr-reactor-one-of-the-most-powerful-in-the-world.html

By my calculation that is about 80 MWe per minute and a little faster than the figure John provided for coal.

Certainly not all NPPs are so blessed, but it instantly disproves the assertion that NPPs by their very nature must be on or off.

I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve quoted this here and elsewhere, but the same old nonsense keeps being repeated frequently by the same people, presumably because they think it bolsters their argument. Wonderland again.

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David B. Benson, It is you that does not understand the issues.

(1) Spinning reserve is a term for several different types of ancillary services, and also describes the control reserve on individual generators that is unused under normal loading but is kept available to enforce frequency discipline during load changes.

The term “spinning reserve” is generally used without defining it because it is assumed that its meaning is obvious and unambiguous, such as in this case. In the comment above I used it in the sence of NERC [3]: “Unloaded generation that is synchronized and ready to serve additional demand.” And such a service cannot be assumed by other spinning reserves scheduled to support existing dispatched generation.

(2) What ever the Germans do they must provide enough spinning reserve to deal with drop outs endemic to wind on a shorter time frame than 4 to7 hours. All over the world this interval is set between 5 and 8 minutes. This is simply a matter of commonsense and a basic understanding of the physics of electric power.

(3) Reference

(4) Reference, this doesn’t sound plausible.

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DV82XL, on 22 April 2011 at 12:37 PM —

(1) Fine.

(2) Read the IAEA wind study and the 5 minute control will be clear.

(3) PacificCorp fairly recently acquired a CCGT; search for the news article. The large wind operator I mentioned in my reply to harrywr2, the comment just prior to my reply to you, is obtaining backing in part via an existing CCGT in Klamath Falls; I didn’t keep the link the news item, sorry.

(4) See (2). One only does this when natgas is quite expensive.

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@ Neil Howes, on 22 April 2011 at 11:57 AM:

Again, you make the mistake of saying that nuclear is either ON or OFF, even while trying to say that this is not so.

You said: “so a capacity factor of 0.92 means they are operating at ABOUT 92% of the time an off line ABOUT 8%”.

A capacity factor of 92% says exactly nothing about how long a generating unit has been off line. What it does say is that the average output of the machine, during the period in question, has been 92% of the nameplate rating of the machine. The other 8% might be partially off line or just load following.

It is a fallacy to think that conventional power generation plant, whether coal, nuclear, hydro, OCGT, CCGT is either ON or OFF. It is also incorrect to confuse capacity factors with availability or with load points. All conventional generators are capable of operating within a range and of being loaded up and down within that range over time.

Wind, however, stands virtually alone as being incapable of being scheduled to go higher or lower on demand. It is the greediest form of generation when it comes to matters such as reliability, frequency control, voltage control, load following, availability… you name it and it is on the list. Anything relating to quality and reliability needs to come from elsewhere in the grid. I have nothing against wind power, but please understand properly what it can do and what it cannot.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity_factor

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@David B. Benson, I see you are falling back on telling me to go read some study rather than supply a reference in a proper manner. The fact is that you cannot supply a reference to back up what you are asserting, thus as far as I am concerned they are nothing but a product of your imagination.

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John Bennetts, on 22 April 2011 at 12:57 PM — Wind can be, and is, controlled to produce either more or less power within a range near the peak power available depending upon how windy it is. WInd enhances grid stability at the ~1 second level due to this highly responsive controllability. Frequency control on modern wind generators is not an issue nor is voltage control.

Load following in the sense of the general shape of the demand over a day is not possible but it is possible to not generate on any given turbine.

Availablity is adequately determined 24 hours in advance, sufficieent for Europe’s power markets.

Please to read this IEA Wind Power Study

Click to access T2493.pdf

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John Bennetts:

Nuclear power stations have control rods for a purpose. Partial insertion of same results in decreased heat generation in the core. That’s what they are there for.

Decreased heat generation in the core results in decreased steam output… thus decreased loads. Nuclear power is not generally thought of as load-following because it is not capable of rapid output changes, but it is certainly able to load follow to a certain extent.

Naval nuclear power reactors do not move (“shim”) control rods in/out to change power output. Shimming the rods controls the average coolant temperature and is also used to control the reactivity in the Rx which changes due to fuel burnout and fission product poisons, Xe having the most effect.

Every baby “nuc” learns the adage, “Rx power follows steam demand”. As steam demand goes up, such as by opening the propulsion tgurbine throttles more or by higher electrical demand causing the TG governors to do the same automatically, pressure in thye steam generators drop, causing more water to flash to steam. As a result, the the primary loop water returning from the steam generators is cooler than before. Cooler water is denser, meaning that more neutrons are thermalized before they are lost to the control rods, shielding, fuel poisons, etc. More thermal neutrons leads to more U235 fissions, causing a higher heat input and therefore higher water temperature leaving the Rx and going to the steam generators. Steam production increases. There is no way to graph this in a post, but in a linear upramp, Rx power will lag steam demand, then start rising at the same rate, overshoot and then matches steam demand. From steady-state to steady-state with the same average Rx water temp, the spread between Rx outlet and Rx inlet water temperatures is greater as power output increases. On power downramps, the primary side coolant returning to the Rx from the steam generators is warmer, less dense, so fewer neutrons are thermalized and Rx power drops.

Transfering electrical load between generators is very easy. All one had to do is slightly increase the output voltage on the generator that you want to have assume more load, and reduce the voltage on the generator that you want to have less load on. Think of voltage as akin to water pressure and current as water flow. The generator with the higher voltage will supply more current to the bus. If the demand is not changed, the other generator will provide less current.

On a Nimitz-class Rx plant, of which I am intimately familiar, I have personally taken Rx power from 0 to near-100% in under 30 minutes. Of course, naval reactors are designed for these types of power transients, so it is possible to design civilian power Rx to “load-follow”. (I believe that B&W is designing its mPower modular reactors to do so, building on its experience building naval reactors.) It’s just that the current installed base were designed to run at 100% power to provide base load and leave load-following to oil-fired thermal power plants (since converted to NG).

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msit, on 22 April 2011 at 5:03 AM said:

With a very pessimistic view France is the perfect example for that nuclear power will not substantially help for fixing our global energy problem.

… but under that level of pessimism, no electricity generation method will “substantially help”. However France could easily build more nuclear power stations, if they chose, to undertake creation of energy carrying chemicals for transport. Unfortunatly at present this is not perceived as economically worthwhile, but if a country like France was sufficiently bold to set up the industry, they might be superbly placed to take advantage of future trends in fuels.

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David: I did not say that frequency control or voltage control are a problem for the wind turbines. I was referring to the system.

Wind turbines cannot provide frequency control. That is commonly provided via hydro or baseload generators. Wind is controlled to follow the system frequency, which is set elsewhere.

Because wind is not able to be scheduled, ie loaded and unloaded instant by instant, minute by minute, it is unable to provide voltage control. If power from one source drops, this presents as a voltage drop which will grow into a frequency disturbance if the system cannot respond adequately. Wind cannot provide reliance against this type of event – it comes from elsewhere.

If availability was indeed adequate for Europe’s electricity markets, then why does Denmark export so much power at zero price, only to have to purchase it back from the German (west) or Scandanavian (east) market? It seems to me that improved availability during those times of low speed wind would be very desirable indeed.

I will read your reference later in the day. Thankyou.

Paul Lindsay: Many thanks for the correction. I had not realised the relationship between reactor power and load was so direct. Memo to self: Must read up on nuclear power station control systems and limitations. The term “control rod” led me astray – it appears that these are not there for operational controls, but for emergency control. Has anybody a good on-line resource?

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@Neil Howes, I expected that you would read the comments following that article, as they rip it apart. I would have thought that given you, yourself had commented there and had your errors pointed out already in some detail by Peter Lang, that we could save the effort of repeating them again here.

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DV8, David provided a link a few minutes ago – about the same time you wrote your comment. The link is for an IEA study (not IAEA) titled in part “Design and operation of power systems with large amounts of wind power”.

David, could you please highlight the best page number, entry-point to find the material you are referencing. The report is large 4.3MB and 239 pages.

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John Bennetts: Control rods provide both operational and emergency functions. In terms of PWR design with the control rod mechanisms on top of the core, moving the rods upwards removes a huge amount of negative reactivity from the reactor volume where the rods were. To a neutron, a control rod is a bottomless pit. Rods do not “attract” neutrons, but any neutron entering a rod not going to cause a fission. A reactor’s overall reactivity is affected by not only how far the rods are moved, but by how fast they move. The speed effect was a major contributor to the SL1 accident. In a naval reactor, the rod speed is a design factor and cannot be controlled or adjusted by the operator. When starting up a reactor, the operators calculate the expected rod position where the reactor will go critical, based on the last operational rod heights, power history, temperature and the elapsed time since shutdown. During startup, rods are pulled to a known safe level, then carefully withdrawn while watching the instruments for an increase in neutron generation, indicating fission. That doesn’t mean that the reactor can start generating steam immediately. One has to continue pulling rods to increase the heat output of the reactor above the net losses in order to warm up the primary system to a point where steam can start being generated, then start releasing steam to warm up the secondary (steam) system in a PWR (or essentially the whole plant in a BWR). On a Nimitz-class CVN, there is also a tertiary low-pressure steam system used for heating steam (heat, laundry, galley, etc), plus the catapult steam system that comes off the secondary system, but the water & steam that goes there NEVER comes back to the engineering plant.

Lastly, unlike civilian reactors, US naval reactors do not use soluble boron for operational control of reactivity. Boron is only used during refueling shutdowns.

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DV8, Cyril R et al.,
You have done a good job (as usual) presenting factual information to counter the over optimistic projections put forward by “environmentalist”.

Personally, I am very much in favour of what “environmentalist” is trying to sell. As an engineer/physicist I tried to build wind mills, solar and PV generators while living in North Carolina. Given my rural location, the family home frequently lost electric power for periods of up to a week owing to hurricanes and ice storms.

My objective was to have sufficient power to pump water from my 190′ deep well with enough left over to run a few lights and a TV set. The costs were so high that the projects never got beyond the planning stage. Eventually a 5 kVA gasoline generator was purchased from Honda for $600 which was sold five years later for $900. What a great investment! On several occasions we provided showers and laundry services for our neighbours who were getting a little smelly owing to their lack of water. (Our water and house heating ran on propane from a 1,000 gallon buried tank).

Getting back to generating power on a large scale I visited the Martin solar power plant that is co-located with steam power plants and combined cycle plants.
http://www.evwind.es/noticias.php?id_not=10770

This is the largest natural gas plant in the USA with an output of >2,800 MW. I have written a report on my visit which I plan to offer for publication on this site if Florida Power & Light approves.

I am sure it will be no surprise when I tell you that the availability of the Martin solar power is such that the average power generated is 18 MW or 0.64% of the total from the plant. The 190,000 mirrors cover 500 acres compared to ~200 acres for the rest of the plant that generates the other 99.36% of the electricity.

Both the solar and fossil fuel plants require a “Heat Sink”. The Martin plant has an ~18,000 acre lake to take care of this function.

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Thanks again, Paul. Australia has neither nuclear power generation nor nuclear warships, so please excuse my lack of knowledge.

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msit: per-capita is critical, you can’t leave it out.

In the long run, there is a total global ghg emission rate that is sustainable without driving the temperature up. It’s about 1 tonne per person per annum for a population of 9 billion.

Click to access Pelletier%20%26%20Tyedmers%202010.pdf

How would you share this out? Divide 9 billion tonnes equally among the countries of the world? I hope not. Per-capita is the only fair method.

In the short term, there is also a budget of what we can put up before we stabilise at the 9 billion sustainable level. Some alternative ways of
“spending” this budget are here:

Click to access 20.full.pdf

What actually matters isn’t so much the trajectory of how much co2 we throw up in the sky when, but just how much. We could have an orgy of nuke building before 2050 with all the steel and concrete that entails and then drop back to cruising at 9 billion tonnes per year, or we could spin out that expenditure of our co2 budget. I’m guessing it’s easier to design nukes with very long lifes than windmills or solar panels. We need to reuse the steel and concrete containment buildings because they can definitely last a really long time.

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The common question I ask wind power advocates here in New Mexico is, “How many wind farms like the 100 MW (rated) High Lonesome Mesa project are required to replace just the coal-fired 1800 MW San Juan Generating Station or the coal-fired 2040 MW Four Corners Power Plant, which currently emits more smog-forming pollution than any other power plant in the US?”

I have yet to receive an answer. Part of the problem is that wind farms guard their actual power outputs very closely. HLM, LLC was completed in Aug 2009 and has forty 2.5 MW clipper turbines in a class 5-6 wind area. From the FERC, I was able to calculate that on a daily MWh-produced basis, the High Lonesome Mesa wind farm had a capacity factor of approx 21% from July through September 2010. Unfortunately, the data that HLM, LLC submitted for Oct-Dec 2010 is completely bogus, showing only a single line entry for the entire time period that calculates out at EXACTLY 40% c.f.. I can only assume that HLM, LLC was paid a contracted amount for for that time period, regardless of what was actually produced. To date, HLM, LLC has not made a report for Jan-Mar 2011.

Anyone who wants to can access the FERC data at http://www.ferc.gov/docs-filing/eqr/data/spreadsheet.asp , but power producers are only required to report what they sold to other utilities. So if a utility owns its wind farm(s) and uses all the energy produced themselves, there will not be any entries.

Using HLM’s Q3-2010 production numbers, it would take an absolute minimum of 86 identical wind farms to replace just the 1800 MW output of the San Juan GS. Of course, everyone here knows the fallacy of that number, because it assumes that the 21% c.f. means that HLM outputs 21 MW continuously, which it idoesn’t. There also aren’t 85 more class 5 or better locations for 100 MW wind farms in New Mexico, so it’s like extrapolating the time that a bicycle time-trialer could ride from LA to NY without stopping and without accounting for the terrain based on his performance on a 20k flat course.

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