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Emissions Nuclear Renewables

Emission cuts realities for electricity generation – costs and CO2 emissions

We must cut our carbon emissions immediately!“… “We have to transition rapidly to 100% renewable energy!“… “A massive nuclear build out is the only logical course of action!“… and so on. We get these well-meant but hand-waving arguments all the time, almost always bereft of real-world numbers — especially those with $$ attached. This greatly limits their utility and credibility. Without a practical, pragmatic plan, we aren’t going to get anywhere and the people in control of the purse strings will not pay them serious attention.

That’s why I’m so happy to present this new, clear-headed analysis by Peter Lang on BraveNewClimate (which was spawned by in the discussion threads of previous posts on wind and solar power — their costs and ability to mitigate carbon emissions). Using Australia as a case study (although the same principles would apply in almost any developed economy that is currently reliant on fossil fuel energy), Peter considers six electricity supply scenarios for the period 2010 to 2050 — a high-carbon business-as-usual projection as a reference, and five low(er) carbon alternatives. In each of the alternatives, coal-fired power stations are retired, and not replaced, such that by the period 2035 — 2040, the last few are closed.

These analysis are simple, clearly presented and easily understood. Yet they’re also realistic in the same way that David Mackay’s energy plans are realistic — they add up (although Mackay was concerned about whether the physics are right, Lang is concerned about whether the $$ and build rates are plausible). They are an apples and apples set of plans, in the sense that they represent reasonable relative comparisons which all aim to achieve the same goal, in different ways. Like any modelling exercise, the uncertainties lie in the quality of the input data and the acceptability of the assumptions made. Peter makes them quite explicit. If you wish to disagree and propose/source your own numbers, fine, but remember that the onus is then on you to justify your assumptions.

I’ll stop and this point and let you read the analysis. Get yourself a large mug of coffee or a tall glass of wine, and settle in for an interesting read. After that, let the comments fly. I certainly have my own points to make about where I think the analysis is most/least plausible, but that can come a little later…

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Emission Cuts Realities – Electricity Generation

Cost and CO2 emissions projections for different electricity generation options for Australia to 2050

By Peter Lang, January 2010

(Download the printable 32-page PDF version here, which also includes references and Appendices).

Peter Lang is a retired geologist and engineer with 40 years experience on a wide range of energy projects throughout the world, including managing energy R&D and providing policy advice for government and opposition. His experience includes: coal, oil, gas, hydro, geothermal, nuclear power plants, nuclear waste disposal, and a wide range of energy end use management projects.

Abstract

Five options for cutting CO2 emissions from electricity generation in Australia are compared with a ‘Business as Usual’ option over the period 2010 to 2050. The six options comprise combinations of coal, gas, nuclear, wind and solar thermal technologies.

The conclusions: The nuclear option reduces CO2 emissions the most, is the only option that can be built quickly enough to make the deep emissions cuts required, and is the least cost of the options that can cut emissions sustainably. Solar thermal and wind power are the highest cost of the options considered. The cost of avoiding emissions is lowest with nuclear and highest with solar and wind power.

Introduction

This paper presents a simple analysis of CO2 emissions, capital expenditure, electricity generation costs and the emissions avoidance cost for six options for supplying Australia’s electricity. The results are presented at five year intervals for the period 2010 to 2050.

The purpose of this paper is to address two questions that were raised in discussion of three earlier papers (Lang 2009a, Lang 2009b, Lang 2009c). The papers ‘Solar Power Realities’ (Lang 2009b), and the Addendum (2009c), looked at the cost of reducing CO2 emissions using solar power. They did this by looking at the limit situation; that is, we replace all our fossil fuel electricity generation ‘overnight’ with either solar power and energy storage or with nuclear power. The papers concluded that solar power would cost at least 40 times more than nuclear to supply the National Electricity Market (NEM). The estimates were based on current prices for currently available technologies and for the NEM demand in 2007.

The first paper, “Cost and Quantity of Greenhouse Gas Emissions Avoided by Wind Generation” (Lang 2009a), concluded that wind power with back-up by gas generators saves little greenhouse gas emissions and the avoidance cost is high compared with other alternatives.

Discussion of these analyses raised two main questions:

1. The limit situation does not take into account what happens during the transition period. The earliest we could begin commissioning nuclear is about 2020. So, what should we do until then? Does it make sense to build wind power as fast as possible until 2020, at least, so we can cut greenhouse gas emissions as quickly as possible and start as early as possible?

2. The previous papers consider replacement of fossil fuel generators with one technology only rather than with a mix of technologies. This raises the question: would a mix of technologies be better able to meet the demand and at lower cost. Would a mix of solar and wind be lower cost than either alone, and lower cost than nuclear?

To attempt to answer these questions, in a ‘ball park’ way, I conducted a simple analysis of the cost, and CO2 emissions from six options (six technology mixes) for the period 2010 to 2050. The six options are:

1. Business as Usual (BAU).

2. Combined Cycle Gas Turbine (CCGT).

3. Nuclear and CCGT.

4. Wind and Gas [Gas means a mix of Open Cycle Gas Turbine (OCGT) and Combined Cycle Gas Turbine (CCGT)].

5. Solar Thermal and CCGT

6. Solar Thermal, Wind and Gas.

Throughout the paper ‘emissions’ refers to ‘CO2-e emissions’. More specifically, it refers to CO2-e emissions from electricity sent out from the power station. The figures are not life cycle emissions (see assumption 10, below).

Assumptions

Assumptions that apply to all options are described in this section. Assumptions that are specific to an option or to a technology are described under the relevant option in the Methodology section.

1. The total energy supplied is as per the ABARE (2007) projections of electricity supply to 2030, extended linearly to 2050. All options must supply this total energy for each period and all must provide the same quality of power as the Business as Usual case. To achieve this, intermittent renewable energy generators must be backed up by a responsive generator technology.

2. For all except the Business as Usual case, it is assumed that coal fired power stations can be and will be decommissioned at the rate of 1 GW per year for black coal generators and 0.4 GW per year for brown coal generators.

3. The energy deficit caused by decommissioning the coal fired power stations is supplied by replacement generating capacity. Five options for replacement generating capacity are considered. Each option comprises a mix of a few technologies that in combination are capable, theoretically, of providing the energy and the power that would have been provided by the coal power stations. That is, the mixes of replacement technologies must be capable of providing the same power quality, and of supplying it on demand, at all times.

4. The ABARE (2007) projections provide the breakdown of energy supply by nine generation types; four fossil fuel and five renewable energy. The energy supplied by the seven non-coal technologies is the same in all six options [There is one exception to this statement – see Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT]. The Business as Usual case is as per the ABARE (2007) projections for all nine technologies.

5. The main constraint in the analyses is the assumed decommissioning rate for coal fired power stations and the assumed build rate achievable for the replacement technologies. The build rate assumptions are arguably optimistic. The achievability of the assumed build rates is discussed in a later section.

6. The capital expenditures do not include the cost of replacement of the reserve capacity margin that is needed to cover for scheduled and unscheduled outages because the reserve capacity margin is assumed to be the same for all options.

7. The analyses are intentionally simple so that non-specialists can follow the assumptions and analyses. A more thorough analysis would use sophisticated modelling to optimise the mix of technologies and to calculate the long run marginal cost of electricity sent out. All available technologies would be included in the analyses rather then the simple mixes used in these analyses. Such analyses are complicated and need sophisticated modelling capability. For examples see EPRI (2009a), MIT (2007), MIT (2009), ACIL-Tasman (2009), Frontier Economics (2009), ATSE (2008).

8. Transmission costs are similar for the Business as Usual, CCGT and Nuclear options. So no additional cost is included for transmission for the CCGT and Nuclear options. Extra costs for transmission are included for the Wind and Solar Thermal options.

9. No allowance is made for the lower energy growth rate that energy efficiency improvements will bring. This omission is offset because no allowance is made for the higher growth rate as cleaner electricity replaces gas for heating and replaces oil for land transport (either in electric vehicles or through synthetic fuels such as methanol or hydrogen that use electricity for their production).

10. CO2 emissions from nuclear and the renewable energy technologies are assumed to be zero in operation, consistent with DCC (2009), EPRI (2009b) and Frontier (2009). On a Life Cycle Analysis (LCA) basis the emissions from these technologies are small compared with fossil fuel generation. These are ignored in this simple analysis. [Lightbucket (2009) lists the results from authoritative studies of LCA emissions from electricity generation].

11. No attempt has been made to reconcile CO2 emissions calculated for the Business as Usual option with the emissions projections published by the Department of Climate Change (2009).

12. The ABARE (2007) energy projections are for all Australia’s electricity supply, both off-grid and on-grid. However, the analyses here apply the ABARE (2007) figures as if they were for grid connected electricity. This simplification means the potential for emissions reductions and the cost of the options is overstated (perhaps by 10% in early years decreasing over time).

Table 1 lists the CO2-e emissions intensities for sent out electricity in 2010 for the Business as Usual technologies.

Table 2 summarises the assumptions and inputs for the coal and replacement technologies.

Methodology

This section explains how the analyses were done.

Option 1 – Business as Usual (BAU)

The ABARE (2007) projections for electricity supply for the years 2005-06 to 2029-30 were extended to 2050 and converted from petajoules (PJ) to terawatt-hours (TWh). Figure 1 shows the energy projections for the Business as Usual option.

The CO2 emissions were calculated for the Business as Usual case by multiplying the energy by the CO2 emissions factors. The assumed emissions factors for 2010 are listed in Table 1. Emissions factors for the periods after 2010 were reduced at the rate of 1% per 5 years to account for average efficiency improvements for the existing generators and new generators. The renewable and nuclear technologies are assumed to produce zero emissions (Table 1).

To compare the cost difference between the options we need only compare the cost of the coal with the replacement technologies. All the other technologies are the same for all options.

The capital expenditure for coal in the Business as Usual case comprises two components:

a) the capital expenditure of new coal capacity added to meet the rising demand for electricity; and

b) the capital expenditure of new coal to replace old coal that has reached the end of its economic life. To work with capital expenditure, we must convert the energy figures in the ABARE projections to average power.

The energy (TWh) was converted to average power (GW) using a capacity factor of 90% (refer Table 2). As mentioned previously, this simple analysis ignores the reserve capacity margin needed in the generation system.

The amount of new coal capacity required each year for the Business as Usual case was calculated from the ABARE (2007) projections. The amount of new coal to replace existing coal at the end of its economic life was calculated as 2% of existing capacity per year [Assuming a 40 year economic life, the plants would be replaced at the rate of 2.5% per year if the capacity was constant from year to year. However, the capacity is increasing over time. In any one year we need to replace only the plants that are 40 years old. If the capacity doubles in 40 years, then we need to replace 1.25% of the total existing capacity in each year. I have assumed 2% as a round figure in between 1.25% and 2.5%.].

The capital cost of new coal capacity for the Business as Usual option was calculated by multiplying the amount of new coal capacity by the unit rate for Ultra Super Critical Black Coal (air cooled) and Ultra Super Critical Brown Coal (air cooled) (refer Table 35, ACIL-Tasman 2009).

All non-BAU options

For all options other than Business as Usual, black coal capacity is decommissioned at the rate of 1 GW per year, and brown coal at the rate of 0.4 GW per year. Decommissioning starts in 2010. All black coal is decommissioned by 2040 and all brown coal by 2035.

The amount of energy these power stations would have generated if not decommissioned is calculated. This is the energy deficit that must be supplied by the replacement generators in all the non Business as Usual options.

The CO2 emissions from the remaining coal capacity are calculated by multiplying the energy generated from black coal and brown coal by the emissions factor for that technology for that year.

The Business as Usual Option comprises projections for nine technologies, – Black Coal, Brown Coal and seven others. The emissions from all the seven non-coal technologies are the same for all options.

The following sections describe the five options considered here for replacing the energy from the decommissioned coal power stations.

Option 2 – Combined Cycle Gas Turbine (CCGT)

CCGT is built to replace the energy deficit resulting from the decommissioning of the coal fired plants. The amount of CCGT capacity required is calculated by multiplying the energy deficit by 90% capacity factor. Figure 2 shows the energy supplied by each technology.

The CO2 emissions for CCGT are calculated using a CO2 emissions factor of 0.45 t CO2/MWh, decreasing at 1% per five year to reflect increasing generation efficiency.

The CO2 emissions from the remaining coal generators and from the other seven technologies are included in the total for this option.

The capital cost for this option is calculated using the unit rate for new build CCGT (air cooled) given in Table 35, ACIL Tasman (2009), and decreasing at -0.4% pa from 2030 to 2050.

Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT

For this option, nuclear power is commissioned at the rate of 1 GW per year from 2020 to 2025, then at 1.5 GW per year to 2030, then at 2 GW per year to 2050. The reason for selecting these rates is discussed below in “How achievable are the build rates”

CCGT is commissioned at the rate needed to make up the difference between the energy that the nuclear power can supply and the energy deficit caused by decommissioning the coal power stations. Figure 3 shows how much energy is produced by each technology.

From 2010 to 2019, no nuclear capacity is commissioned so the CCGT capacity is the same as in Option 2 – CCGT. From 2020 to 2025, nuclear is not built fast enough to replace the coal capacity being decommissioned, so CCGT is added to supply the energy deficit. After 2025, nuclear is being built faster than coal is being decommissioned. So, progressively less energy is being required from CCGT. This shows up (in this simple analysis) as a reduction in CCGT capacity. The practical interpretation of this is that the Natural Gas generation capacity would be reduced at this rate. This means that Natural Gas generation capacity would not be replaced at the end of its 30 year economic life. This begins from about 2025.

CO2 emissions for nuclear are assumed to be zero (see ‘Assumptions’ and Table 1). CO2 emissions for Coal, CCGT and the other technologies are calculated in the same way as for Option 2 – CCGT. As for capacity, the negative emissions shown against CCGT should actually be a reduction in emissions from ‘Natural Gas’ but for simplicity of calculation they are shown as negative for CCGT.

The capital cost calculations for this option are similar to those for Option 2 – CCGT. The cost of the nuclear capacity is at the unit rate in ACIL-Tasman (2009), Table 35, and decreasing at -0.9% pa from 2030 to 2035 then at -0.6% pa to 2050.

Option 4 – Wind and Gas

For this option, wind power capacity is commissioned at the same rate as the coal fired plants are decommissioned. So when all wind farms are producing full power (a rare event), the wind farms will supply all the energy that the decommissioned coal fired power plants would have supplied. When the wind farms are not producing full power, back-up generation is required to make up for the energy deficit.

Back-up capacity is provided by a combination of Combined Cycle Gas Turbines (CCGT) and Open Cycle Gas Turbines (OCGT). Equal proportions are assumed. A Capacity Credit of 8% is assumed (AER, 2009), so 1 GW of wind power capacity is assumed to be backed up by 0.46 GW of OCGT and 0.46 GW of CCGT [In practice more gas capacity will be built than this calculation indicates. OCGT and CCGT run at lower capacity factors in practice than the 90% used in this analysis for calculating the amount of capacity required]. The proportions, on the basis of capacity, are 1.0:0.46:0.46.

The energy is calculated assuming a capacity factor of 30% for Wind and availability of 90% for OCGT and CCGT. So, on average, 3 GWh of energy is supplied by a combination of Wind, OCGT and CCGT in the proportions 1:1:1. Figure 4 shows how much energy is produced by each technology.

CO2 emissions for wind generation are assumed to be zero (refer to ‘Assumptions’ and Table 1). The CO2 emissions for OCGT are calculated using a CO2 emissions intensity of 0.7 t CO2/MWh, decreasing at 1% per five years to reflect increasing generation efficiency. CO2 emissions for CCGT, Coal and the other technologies are calculated in the same way as for Option 2 – CCGT. The lower efficiency and higher emissions from the gas turbines when operating in back up mode (Lang, 2009a; Hawkins, 2009) are included in this analysis. The CO2 emissions are increased by 34% for OCGT and 17% for CCGT (Hawkins, 2009) when these technologies are operating in back-up mode. The higher emissions rate is applied to the proportion of the energy that is generated when they are assumed to be operating in ‘back-up’ mode. For simplicity this is assumed to be equal to the proportion of the replacement energy that is generated by Wind. In effect, the increased emissions factor is applied to half the energy generated by the CCGT and OCGT replacement generators.

The capital cost calculations for this option are similar to those for Option 2 – CCGT and Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT. The capital cost of the wind capacity is $2591/kW (Average of seven wind farms listed as ‘under construction’ in ABARE (2009). This Australian cost is close to the US cost in EPRI (2009b), Table 7.1, p 7-5, which is US$2350/kW = A$2611/kW) in 2010 and decreasing in future periods at -0.6% pa (Frontier, 2009). The cost of OCGT and CCGT capacity is at the unit rate in ACIL-Tasman (2009), Table 35, increasing at +0.4% pa and +0.5% pa from 2030 to 2050.

As mentioned above, the OCGT and CCGT generators are less efficient when operating in back up mode for wind. These analyses assume that the electricity generation costs are 17% higher for CCGT and 34% higher for OCGT (Hawkins, 2009). However, only half the energy generated by these technologies is considered to be in back-up mode, so electricity cost is increased by 8.5% for CCGT and 17% for OCGT when operating in back-up mode.

Wind power is assumed to have an economic life of 25 years and gas 30 years. Wind and gas capacity installed in 2010 must be replaced in 2035 and 2040 respectively. The capital costs of replacing wind and gas at the end of their economic lives are calculated at the capital cost rate applicable for the year in which the replacement is commissioned.

Wind power requires significant additional capital expenditure for transmission and network management capability. Based on estimated costs for extra transmission capacity incurred because of wind generation in the USA, $1,000/kW of installed wind capacity is included (Gene Preston, pers. comm., 3 Nov 2009). The transmission cost for wind power raises the cost of electricity by an assumed $15/MWh on average (Gene Preston, Dec 2009, pers. comm. and EPRI, 2009a).

Option 5 – Solar Thermal and CCGT

This option is similar to Option 3 – Nuclear & CCGT but with solar thermal instead of nuclear.

The differences are:

1. The build rate of solar thermal capacity in this option (Option 5) is half the build rate of nuclear in Option 3 – Nuclear & CCGT

2. Therefore, the build rate of CCGT is higher in this option than in the Nuclear & CCGT option (to make up the energy difference). This means emissions are higher in the Solar & CCGT option than in the Nuclear & CCGT option.

3. Solar thermal capacity has an assumed life expectancy of 25 years so replacement of solar thermal capacity begins 25 years after the first installation; so replacement begins in 2045.

4. Whereas nuclear would be built near population centres, where work force, infrastructure, suppliers and services are available, this is not the case for solar thermal [The NEEDS (2009) costs are based on constructing the Andasol 1 solar thermal power station in Spain. The cost of constructing widely distributed solar thermal power stations over an area of some 3000 km by 1000 km in Australia’s deserts will be higher than the cost of constructing in Spain – where there is well developed infrastructure and larger work force nearer to the sites. To construct the solar thermal power stations in areas throughout central Australia will require large mobile construction camps, fly-in fly-out work force, large concrete batch plants, large supply of water, energy and good roads to each power station. Air fields suitable for fly-in fly-out will be required at say one per 250 MW power station. That means we need to build such air fields at the rate of about two, then three, then four per year.]. Solar thermal needs to be built in areas of high insolation (deserts) and the power stations must be widely distributed to minimise the impacts of widespread cloud cover.

5. Transmission costs are included at the rate of $1,200/kW (derived from estimates in AEMO, 2009).

Solar thermal capacity is commissioned at the rate of 0.5 GW per year from 2020 to 2025, then at 0.75 GW per year to 2030, then at 1 GW per year to 2050. However, from 2040, some of the new build is for replacing existing old capacity. Solar thermal capacity is assumed to have the same capacity factor as nuclear, i.e. 90%. This is based on NEEDS (2008) which forecasts that solar thermal will have this capability by 2020 [There is an alternative to solar thermal with sufficient energy storage for 90% capacity factor. The alternative is solar thermal hybrid. Gas generates power when the sun isn’t shining and there is insufficient energy storage. The hybrid options emits much more CO2 than CST alone and the electricity costs are higher (EPRI, 2009a, page 10-20), although this comparison is made at a capacity factor of 34% not 90%. NEEDS argues that the solar thermal with 8000 full load hours energy storage will be available and electricity costs will be less than the hybrid option by 2020. The hybrid option is not included in the options considered here].

CCGT is commissioned at the rate needed to make up the difference between the energy that the solar thermal capacity can provide and the energy deficit caused by decommissioning the coal fired power stations.

From 2010 to 2019, negligible solar thermal is commissioned so CCGT is built at the same rate as in Option 2 – CCGT and Option 3 – Nuclear & CCGT. From 2020 to 2040 CCGT is being added because solar thermal is not being built fast enough to replace the coal capacity being decommissioned. By 2040 all coal capacity has been decommissioned. So, from 2040 less energy is being required from CCGT. This shows up, in this simple analysis, as reduction in CCGT capacity. The practical interpretation of the reduction of CCGT capacity is that the Natural Gas generation capacity would be reduced at this rate. What this means is that the Natural Gas generation would not be replaced at the end of its 30 year economic life. This begins from about 2040. Figure 5 shows how much energy is produced by each technology.

CO2 emissions for solar thermal are assumed to be zero (refer Table 1). CO2 emissions for coal, CCGT and the other technologies are calculated in the same way as for Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT. The negative emissions shown against CCGT should actually be a reduction in emissions from ‘Natural Gas’ but for simplicity they are shown as negative against CCGT.

The capital cost calculations for this option are similar to those for Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT, except that the capital cost of transmission is added and the capital cost of replacing retiring solar thermal capacity is included from 2045. The capital cost of the solar thermal capacity is based on adjusted unit rates from NEEDS (2008), Figure 3.11, Case B [The ‘learning rates’, and hence the costs, in the NEEDS report seem optimistic (see Appendix 2)]. The rates are adjusted to attempt to make them more consistent with the way the ACIL-Tasman (2009) rates were derived. Two adjustments were made. Firstly, the initial capital cost unit rate is adjusted up by 25% to allow for the greater cost of constructing widely distributed power stations across an area roughly 1000 km by 3000 km of Australia’s deserts. Secondly, the learning rate in NEEDS (2008) is replaced with the same rate of cost reduction as for nuclear in Option 3- Nuclear and CCGT.

The capacity factor assumed for solar thermal is the same as for nuclear, coal and gas. This requires that the solar thermal power stations have sufficient energy storage for 24 hour operation and can provide for 8,000 full-load hours per year. Needs (2008) forecast that this capability could be available by 2020. The additional capacity needed to ensure full power generation throughout winter and throughout periods of overcast weather (Lang, 2009b), is not allowed for in this analysis.

As for wind, transmission is a significant cost item for solar thermal. The capital expenditure for transmission for solar thermal is calculated at $1200/kW (based on estimates in AEMO, 2009). Electricity cost includes $15/MWh for transmission.

Option 6 – Solar Thermal, Wind and Gas

For this option, it is assumed that solar thermal is commissioned at the same rate as in Option 5 – Solar Thermal & CCGT. Wind, CCGT and OCGT are commissioned at the same rate as in Option 4 – Wind & Gas. The solar capacity does not reduce the amount of gas capacity needed to back-up for the wind capacity. Gas capacity required to back up for wind does not change but the amount of energy the gas generates does change, with the gas generators working at lower capacity factors.

The energy generated by solar thermal is the same as in Option 5 – Solar Thermal and CCGT. The energy generated by wind is the same as in Option 4 – Wind & Gas. The energy generated by OCGT and CCGT makes up the energy deficit. Figure 6 shows how much energy is produced by each technology.

CO2 emissions for wind and solar are assumed to be zero in this analysis (see Table 1). CO2 emissions for OCGT, CCGT, coal and the other seven technologies are calculated in the same way as for Option 4 – Wind and Gas.

The capital cost calculations for this option are similar to those for Option 4 – Wind & Gas and Option 5 – Solar Thermal & CCGT. The capital cost of the solar capacity in this option is the same as for Option 5 – Solar Thermal & CCGT. The capital cost of the wind capacity is the same as for Option 4 – Wind & Gas. The capital cost of the gas capacity is less than Option 4 – Wind & Gas because of the contribution from solar thermal; solar thermal provides its share of energy and the gas makes up the deficit. Transmission cost is included at $15/MWh for solar thermal and for wind.

Build rates

The rate of decommissioning coal and commissioning the replacement generating capacity, for each option, is summarised in Table 3. The figures in the shaded cells are prescribed inputs and the unshaded cells are calculated values.

Electricity Costs

The cost of electricity, for coal and the replacement technologies, was calculated for each option. The electricity costs were calculated by applying the electricity cost unit rate (see Table 4 and Appendix 2) to the proportion of energy generated by each technology. Appendix 2 explains the sources and derivation of the electricity cost unit rates for use in this analysis.

CO2 Avoidance Cost

The CO2 avoidance cost (the cost to avoid a tonne of CO2 emissions) was calculated for each option. It is the difference in electricity cost between Business as Usual and the respective option divided by the difference in CO2 emission between the Business as Usual and the respective option.

Results

The results of the analyses are summarised in Figures 7 to 12.

Figure 7 compares the total CO2 emissions per year from the six options.

Figure 8 compares the capital expenditure per 5 years for the six options. The capital expenditure is for coal and the replacement technologies only. The capital expenditure for the other seven technologies is the same for all options; these costs are not included in the total capital expenditure figures shown here.

Figure 9 compares the cumulative capital expenditure of the six options.

Figure 10 shows the long run marginal cost of electricity for coal and the replacement technologies only. These costs do not include the cost for the seven technologies that are the same in all options.

Figure 11 compares the options on the basis of the CO2 avoidance cost; i.e. the cost to avoid a tonne of CO2.

Discussion

The following can be interpreted from Figures 7 and 8:

Option 1 – Business as Usual produces the highest CO2 emissions by a large margin. Capital expenditure is fairly consistent at about $10 to $15 billion per 5 years, or about $2 to $3 billion per year.

Option 2 – CCGT has the highest emissions of the replacement options. It has the lowest capital cost of all options (although it has the highest operating cost). The CO2 emissions with this option are only slightly less in 2050 than in 2010. The reason the curve turns up from 2040 is that all coal fired power stations have been decommissioned. Therefore, CCGT is being added but no coal is being removed. So we are adding emissions from the CCGT without cutting any from coal generation.

Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT has the lowest CO2 emissions from 2020. It has the lowest capital expenditure, except Business as Usual and CCGT, for most of the period from 2010 to 2050. From 2035 the capital expenditure rate decreases.

Option 4 – Wind, with CCGT and OCGT for back-up, produces slightly lower CO2 emissions than the CCGT. However, this is achieved at high cost – about $4 billion to $6 billion per year more than CCGT. The step up in expenditure in 2040 is for replacement of the wind capacity installed in 2015. The emissions increase from 2040 as electricity demand increases and once the coal generators have been decommissioned.

Option 5 – Solar Thermal and CCGT. Solar thermal capacity is built at half the rate of nuclear, and provides half the energy. CCGT must be built faster in the solar option than in the nuclear option to make up the energy deficit. The CO2 emissions from 2010 to 2019 are the same for the three options CCGT, Nuclear & CCGT and Wind & CCGT. From 2020, the CO2 emissions from the solar thermal option are higher than from the nuclear option. By 2050, the CO2 emissions from the solar thermal option are over three times those from the nuclear option, and increasing as electricity demand increases. The capital expenditure for the solar option is substantially higher than for nuclear throughout.

Option 6 – Solar, Wind and Gas is a combination of Options 4 and 5. CO2 emissions are the second lowest from 2020 to 2050. Importantly, this option requires around $5 billion to $6 billion per year higher capital expenditure than nuclear to 2030. From 2030 to 2050 the difference in capital expenditure blows out to over $10 billion per year higher rate of expenditure for this option.

Figure 9 shows the cumulative capital cost and Figure 10 shows the long run marginal cost of electricity (LRMC). The following can be interpreted from these two charts:

CCGT is the lowest cost option throughout the period from 2010 to 2050.

Nuclear & CCGT has the lowest total cost (cumulative capital expenditure) of all options except Business as Usual and CCGT. The electricity cost for the Nuclear & CCGT option peaks in 2045 then starts to decrease as Natural Gas is decommissioned.

The steep rise in capital expenditure and electricity cost for the Wind option and the Solar Thermal and Wind option is because of the high cost of Wind and because Wind is being added at the rate of 1.4 GW per year from 2011, which is three times the rate Wind was commissioned in 2008.

The options with wind and solar thermal produce the highest cost electricity throughout.

The cumulative capital expenditure for the Solar Thermal option is about 30% higher than for nuclear. This is despite the fact that the solar thermal capacity is being built at half the rate of nuclear.

Important to note: The electricity cost for the Solar Thermal, Wind and Gas option is higher than the Solar Thermal and CCGT option. This indicates that combining renewable energy generators does not reduce the cost.

Figure 11 compares the options on the basis of the cost of avoiding a tonne of CO2 emissions. The CCGT option has the lowest avoidance cost to 2035 and then the Nuclear & CCGT option is lowest thereafter. The difference, in 2015, between the options that have Wind in their mix ($163/tCO2-e) and those that do not (50/tCO2-e) is because wind with gas back up is far more expensive but avoids insignificant extra emissions (see Figure 7). In the long run, Nuclear & CCGT is the least cost way to reduce emissions from electricity generation. The options with Wind and Solar are the highest cost way to avoid emissions.

How achievable are the assumed build rates?

The build rate for Business as Usual has been achieved consistently to date, so there can be no doubt that it is achievable.

The build rate for CCGT is about twice the build rate for coal in the Business as Usual case and about 15 times the current build rate for Natural Gas generation plant.

The build rate for wind capacity (1.4 GW per year) is about 3 times the build rate achieved in 2008 (0.48 GW) (GWEC, 2008). For comparison, in 2008 USA installed 8.4 GW and China 6.3 GW (GWEC, 2009). Interestingly, developed countries with larger economies than Australia, installed not much more than Australia, e.g. Canada (0.5 GW). AER (2009), Table 1.4 shows a peak for proposed commissioning of 2.8 GW in 2011. In practice, the build rate for wind will be limited by transmission capacity and the amount of wind power that can be accepted by the grid. The assumed build rate of 1.4 GW per year (500-700 turbines a year based on current turbine sizes) seems achievable in the future.

The rate of commissioning nuclear from 2020 to 2025 is 1 GW per year. That is equivalent to one new reactor per mainland state every 5 years. To put this in perspective, France commissioned its Gen II nuclear power plants at the rate of 3 GW per year for two decades (WNA, 2009). And Japan, China and Korea have been building the new Gen III nuclear power plants in about 4 years. So, it would seem the build rate for nuclear assumed here could be achieved from 2020, if necessary.

The assumed rate of commissioning solar thermal in these analyses, seems highly optimistic. The quantity of steel and concrete required is an indication of the amount of construction effort required. Solar thermal requires about 8 times more concrete and 15 times more steel than nuclear per MW of capacity (Table 5). The build rate for solar thermal, assumed in these analyses, is half the rate of nuclear, so each year we would need to construct solar thermal plants comprising 4 times more concrete and seven times more steel than the nuclear plants. But that’s not all. Nuclear would be built relatively close to the population centres, where services, infrastructure and work force is more readily available. Conversely, the solar plants need to be built in the desert regions. They will require four times as much water (for concrete) as nuclear. Water pipe lines will need to be built across the desert to supply the water. Dams will need to be built in the tropical north to store water and desalination plants along the coast elsewhere. To develop and retain a skilled work force to work in such regions will be costly. Work will be for about 9 months of the year to avoid the hottest periods. Based on the quantities of steel and concrete, towns will be required in the desert that accommodate about four times the work force required for constructing a nuclear power station. Fly-in-fly-out airports will need to be built for each town with a capability to move much larger numbers of people than the largest mining operations. Two such towns and airfields must be built per year to achieve the solar thermal build rate. It is hard to imagine how a build rate for solar thermal could be even 1/10th the build rate that could be achieved with nuclear.

The build rate for nuclear would be difficult to achieve. But the build rates for solar thermal would be much more difficult to achieve.

Sensitivity to assumptions and inputs

The results are highly sensitive to some of the assumptions and inputs. The most sensitive inputs are the projections of future capital cost, electricity cost, and the development rates for solar thermal. However, the ranking of the options under different inputs, and therefore the conclusions are robust over the ranges tested.

Answers to the questions

This paper set out to address the two questions stated in the Introduction, viz.:

1. Does it make sense to build wind power as fast as possible until 2020, at least, so we can cut greenhouse gas emissions as quickly as possible and start cutting as early as possible?

2. Would a mix of technologies be better able to meet the demand and do so at lower cost? For example, would a mix of solar and wind be lower cost than either alone, and lower cost than nuclear?

Figure 11 provides the answers.

The answer to Question 1 is ‘No’. Figure 11 shows the emissions avoidance cost for the options without wind is $50/tCO2-e and for the options with wind is $163/tCO2-e in 2015. In 2020, the ranking is the same but the costs are higher (see Figure 11).

The answer to Question 2 is ‘No’. The option with the mix of Solar Thermal and Wind has the highest avoidance cost of all options. It has the highest capital expenditure by far (Figures 8 and 9), and the highest electricity cost (figure 10). Its CO2 emissions are greater than the nuclear option. It has no advantages.

Figure 12 summarises the position in 2050. The figure compares the six options on the basis of the electricity cost of the coal and replacement technologies and the total CO2 emissions per year for each option. Clearly, the Nuclear and CCGT option produces the lowest emissions and the cost penalty is marginally higher than CCGT.

Conclusions

The Nuclear power option will enable the largest cut in CO2-e emissions from electricity generation.

The Nuclear option is the only option that can be built quickly enough to make the deep cuts required by 2050.

The Nuclear option is the least cost of the options that can cut emissions sustainably.

Wind and solar are the highest cost ways to cut emissions.

A mixture of solar thermal and wind power is the highest cost and has the highest avoidance cost of the options considered. Mixing these technologies does not reduce the cost, it increases the cost.

The results are sensitive to the input assumptions and input data, but the ranking of the options, and therefore the conclusions, are robust to the changes of inputs tested.

——————————————————————

For more information on assumptions and calculations, with references to source material, please read the 32-page PDF version.

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By Barry Brook

Barry Brook is an ARC Laureate Fellow and Chair of Environmental Sustainability at the University of Tasmania. He researches global change, ecology and energy.

342 replies on “Emission cuts realities for electricity generation – costs and CO2 emissions”

Interesting post. I would love to see what happens to these numbers if significant efficiency gains are factored in as this is surely the sensible option (I understand your assumption but feel we can and should reduce overall usage).

Secondly I don’t believe the (Gen iii) nuclear option can be built without massive cost blow outs. I would be interested to hear, but doubtful, if there has been a single recent project completed at these costs in a “western democracy”. There is just too much politics involved.

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I would love to see what happens to these numbers if significant efficiency gains are factored in as this is surely the sensible option (I understand your assumption but feel we can and should reduce overall usage).

Has history ever recorded an instance where efficiency gains have led to an overall reduction in power consumption? I thought the record indicated the opposite.

Secondly I don’t believe the (Gen iii) nuclear option can be built without massive cost blow outs.

The Koreans and Japanese seem to manage it OK. Most cost blowouts in the west seem to be due to a combination of unneccessary regulatory burdens, vexatious law suites and political interference. These are factors which must be managed from the start when we go into the nuclear buils.

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This is a really helpful report.

I don’t see an accounting for reject heat from nuclear plants mentioned. From where and at what cost will cooling water be obtained for these?

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Whoops, answering my own question, most demand is reasonably close to the ocean so water is easily available…

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Every large project risks cost blowouts, especially if done as “one offs”. This is true for nuclear power and every other type of power source. Even the last coal fired power station built in Queeensland (Stanwell) took 7 years befor it was fully operational and had cost increases. Standardisation is the answer, as the French proved in the 1980s with their nuclear program.

Noting the energy intensities of each source (Table 1) one obvious question is why don’t we phase out brown coal power plants first, then black coal second? Substituting black coal for brown coal drops emissions 30%, which is far less than the 7% to 10% losses for power transmission from NSW to Vic or SA. We would need a high capacity interstate grid link, but that is surely affordable on this scale of cost.

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Great set of conclusions, in particular the last one. This is the 800lbs gorilla in all of these arguments – it really doesn’t matter how you run the numbers, nuclear come out ahead.

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The {Pacfic] Northwest Power and Conservation Council has released its 6th power plan, guidance for Bonneville Power Authority and assistance to the 147 associated utility customers of BPA. By far the lowest cost option determined was energy efficiency, aboiut a quater the cost of Columbia Basin Wind. That in turn is only about 60% of Solar Trough and much less than half the cost of Utility PV. In oder of cost of least to largest:
Energy Efficiency
Geothermal
Combined Cycle
Columbia Basin WInd
Canadian WInd
Advanced Nuclear
Supercritical Coal
Integrated Gassified Coal
Reciprocating Engine
Wood Residue (No Chip)
Montana Wind
Wyoming Wind
Solar options mentioned (but standing well above the crowded middle)

Over the next 20 years, the regional population is expected to grow by up to 28%, requiring (without efficiency gains) an additional 6.7 GW (average, not peak).

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Addendum: In the NPCC study the cost estimates include
Emission (CO2) cost
Transmission & Losses
System Integration (whatever that is)
Plant costs

Energy Efficiency consists entirely of the plant cost category.

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David B., do you have a link? Are these LCOE figures? The obvious question (is if these figures were correct), from an economic point of view, is why would anyone be silly enough to build a coal-fired power station?

Scott, one practical reason for not phasing out brown coal first is that it’s cheap to burn when your plant is located on the lignite seam, whereas black coal makes more export $$.

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Barry Brook, on January 9th, 2010 at 12.33 — Alas, NPCC just sends me their quarterly newletter and I somethines send in letters regrding the conservation part of the power plan. The seems to be a website:
http://www/nwcouncil.org
which you could try. I don’t know what LCOE stands for, but NPCC does their own projections just for the Pacific Northwest, so I suspect everything is modified for the relgional variations from some sort of average. I note that the rankings differ in important respects from ethree’s study for California, so these differences must be important.

AFAIK, with the sole exception of a 400 MW coal burner going to be newly constructed in Kansas, the only new construction in the USA (of coal burners) are those already under contract. Indeed, the EPA relicensing provisions (for emissions controls) are already so onerous that many utilities are already planning on shutting down existing coal burners when the license expires, with a few being converted to wood burners. Otherwise, the great majority of the forward planning is to put in CCGTs, maybe using the same steam plant that the coal burner used. There are a handful of NPPs currently awaiting the NRC’s slow, slow approval process — not much for such a large country.

What I found particularly interesting is that not even Montana wind is actually cost competative due to transmission costs. Now its a long way from here to eastern Montana, but even further to places further east which might attempt to use that resource.

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I add that one of the reasons that NPPs come out at such modest costs is that Hanford already has a (old) power reactor, is a highly protcted federal reservation and has considerable (to put it mildly) experience in matters nuclear. In addition, it is well located to feed power into BPA’s transmission grid and, I believe, DoE has unused rights to Columbia River water.

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Hi Peter, this is a very interesting report, you’ve covered a lot in a relatively short space.

I just wanted to ask how you would take into account the cost of storing the spent nuclear fuel and whether there were any projections on the price of Uranium from 2020+ that could be added to the analysis.

Also, I think this statement may be overly optimistic and is without reference to the current and historical political sentiment towards nuclear in Australia: ‘Nuclear would be built near population centres’, p. 12.

Last year at a talk I asked Kim Beazley why the Labor Party is against commissioning a study or at least having a debate on nuclear energy in Australia – his reply was energetic and robust (in the negative), to say the least!

Barry, it might be worth putting together a couple of posts on the history of nuclear politics in Australia – with reference to the position of the major parties.

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Why is it supposed to be so difficult to mass produce these reactors firing them up at a rate of 2 or 3 Gw a day worldwide in starting in five years or so. The big nukes are little more than a giant hunk of steel and concrete with some stainless tubing – a tiny fraction of what is used on civil construction worldwide.

In 1941 America had a fraction of todays industrial capacity producing 3.7M automobiles compared to 2007 when 10 million vehicles were produced. In 1941 American tank production was almost zero and yet by 1945 we had produced 80000 tanks weighing in at 30 tons each. Auto production was essentially zero 1943 to 1945.

While only part of the solution, a total fossil fuel elimination with the hot tub size factory produced 30 Mwe Hyperion unit weighing in at about 15 tons illustrates the small amount of industrial capacity required. Two units – made almost 100% of steel with a few hundred pounds of enriched uranium weigh about the same as 20 automobiles or a Sherman tank and are lot less complex. Assuming some cogeneraton, 50000 of them would be needed to convert America from fossils to nuclear about the equivalent of a half million vehicles – .5% of American’s auto or 10% of the WWII tank annual production per year for 10 years.

There is a lot of unemployed autoworkers and mothballed auto factories just waiting for orders.

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Peter,

A hugely interesting and important post. Congratulations on all the thought and hard work that went into its production. I think you have convincingly demonstrated that any Western government that promises significant emissions reductions relative to 1990 levels by 2050 has no chance without either a large nuclear contribution or the impoverishment of its citizens, notwithstanding efficiency improvements.

However, you were very supportive of Steve Kirsch’s quote to the effect that, without alternatives for electric power being cheaper than coal, we’re f—ed. I would therefore like to invite you to pursue this point a bit further. Your present post shows nuclear electricity to be nearly double the cost of coal electricity. I accept that one can’t necessarily expect new nuclear plants to produce at a lower cost than already built coal plants. What I have been unable to ascertain is how much capital cost one can afford for nuclear so that it can compete against new coal under the two following scenarios: a) without any internalisation of coal’s currently externalised non CO2 costs and b) with such internalisation.

You use ACIL-Tasman (2009) to arrive at projected nuclear build cost of Au$ 5207. In your post 41555, you cite a Korean contract price of US$ 3800 and go on to speculate that it might be possible to conceive of the possibility of getting costs down to US$ 2000. Is there a simple, approximate way to translate capital costs into likely electricity costs?

You have also been suggesting that build costs for nuclear are excessively high in part due to a culture in the West of excessive/redundant safety. You have gone so far as to mention safety expenditure was one or more orders of magnitude too high. In your opinion, how much could be saved by opting for extremely safe rather than ridiculously safe?

If you don’t think that nuclear can compete with coal on the current unlevel playing field or even were coal’s non CO2 emissions costs to be internalised, what level of carbon tax would be necessary to make nuclear competitive (using a range of nuclear build cost assumptions)?

Please don’t take any of the above as criticism. I appreciate that it might seem churlish to ask for yet more information immediately following your current magnus opus. However, your contributions are too valuable to put you out to pasture.

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Looking at Appendix 2 in the pdf I don’t think the near static unit costs 2020-2050 for black coal, combined and steam cycle gas can be right. The fuel costs must go through the roof in this period due to depletion and overseas demand, not so much on account of weak carbon taxes. While Australia appears to have plenty of coal and gas for now we will be ‘leaned on’ to supply the rest of the world. However I hesitate to say that gas or coal prices will be say 5X higher in 2040 because their determination is non-linear. Price is determined by supply (affected by depletion and deeper deposits) and demand which is weakened by reduced GDP.

Perhaps an annual fuel price escalation factor is needed. That would be 0% for wind and solar but could be say 2% for coal and nuclear and 5% for gas. Assume labour and other costs have negligible efficiency gains. Sample calculations for a decade’s fuel price escalation give 1.02^10 = 1.22 and 1.05^10 = 1.63. That puts long life wind and solar in a slightly better light.

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Douglas Wise, on January 10th, 2010 at 1.14 — The NPCC’s 6th power plan estimates that US$40/ton (short ton) of carbon is enough to make NPPs more attractive than coal but not more attractive than CCGTs. That’s for here in the Pacific Northwest.

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John I would question your assumption that wind an annual price escalation factor for wind (or solar for that matter) is 0%. For example :

Bolinger, M & Wiser, R (2009) “Wind Power Price Trends in the United States:
Struggling to Remain Competitive in the Face of Strong Growth”, Energy Policy 37 pages 1061-1071

I will summarise some of the findings :

This recent research paper demonstrates how rising costs in materials, energy used to manufacture wind turbines and currency weaknesses threaten to hamper future growth of wind energy. Long term historical trends demonstrate that recent cost pressures and rising costs impact on wind energy’s competitiveness. The paper details the boom-and-bust cycle that characterized the wind market from 1999 through to 2004, and discusses the uncertainty in the wind marketplace. The volatility and increasing costs of wind turbines are also discussed, as turbine prices have doubled on average since 2002, and in 2008 transaction prices have ranged fro US$900/kW to a high of US$1960/kW. Installed project costs are also rising steadily since 2004, in 2006 they were 35% higher and in 2008 they were 20% higher than 2007. Average project costs in 2008 have increased since the 2001 – 2004 period by 62%. These costs will have to be recovered through higher sales prices. The project prices would be even higher without access to state and federal incentives, and therefore the real cost of wind generation is much higher. Wind power projects being built from 2008 onwards are expected to continue to rise in cost, with expected costs in 2009 to be up to US$2250/kw. This research suggests that there is great uncertainty in wind power costs and prices, at present the trend is upwards.

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ps : Peter, thanks for a great analysis. I’m still reading the paper, but I appreciate the effort that went into such a task. You deserve a medal.

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Bryen your point is that wind may not have stable capital costs. Whether or not gas fired generation is faced with stable capital costs eventually fuel costs must escalate. Therefore these kinds of exercises are enormously difficult because of the uncertainty over plant life times, capital costs, fuel costs, carbon taxes and NIMBYism costs. I would point out that wind and solar with 20+ year life times have what I’d call ‘low regret’. For example I don’t regret spending $20k on PV as opposed to say a new car because it keeps producing albeit with foregone opportunities. PV however won’t replace baseload so it can only be a minor component of the mix.

Therefore in some sense if society has spare cash it is better to spend it on scalable low carbon generation than high regret purposes like foreign wars. We should be enormously grateful that the hydro schemes were built early on rather than the money spent on aircraft carriers or whatever.

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As the rest of the world follows similar decision paths it does not seem unlikely that deployment of some technologies will become bounded by availability of input resources. Leading up to exhaustion of resources, costs will change as availability becomes tighter.

Lang’s writeup as it stands is a compelling argument for nuclear generation but with a population of less than 22,000,000 it is not the place where prices are set for resources needed to build generation systems of any style.

If any revision/extension were done on this work, it would be great to see some discussion on what happens with the costs of various systems under consideration with a view beyond Australia’s horizon. The conclusion may remain unchanged but such considerations would improve confidence.

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John,

Firstly, regarding your use of the term “NIMBYism”

I will repeat here what I posted on this thread ->

Solar power realities – supply-demand, storage and costs

because this is very important point that unfortunately a lot of people dont seem to understand, and to see you use the term is a shame.

—>

It pains me every time I see this word, because it downplays peoples legitimate concerns and rights. The industry and gov’s love it because it is easy to name call, and this is really just all that it is, a schoolyard name calling tactic.

Sustainability also encompasses people, wildlife and the places they live, its not just about technology and numbers.

I recommend this study “Beyond NIMBYism” ->
http://www.sed.manchester.ac.uk/research/beyond_nimbyism/
Project Summary :

“The Energy White Paper (2003) and recently published Energy Review (2006) contain ambitious goals for decarbonising the UK economy, including increasing development of renewable energy technologies (RET) to provide 20% of UK electricity supply by 2020 (it is currently about 5%) and thus facilitate a step change in carbon emissions reduction by 2050.
The significance of issues of public acceptability are being increasingly recognised by policy makers, the research community and other stakeholders as a necessary condition of reaching this 20% goal. However, our current level of understanding of public views and how they might be relevant to the way in which RETs are evolving (including understandings of the public based upon the NIMBY ‘Not In My Back Yard’ concept), is both limited and restricted, excepting a few case-studies of onshore wind energy development.

In this light, this project, which is part of a major national programme funded by the Government’s Economic and Social Research Council, seeks to significantly extend the current research base by examining a range of forms of technology which are expected to figure, to varying degrees, in the UK renewable energy profile – offshore wind, biomass of various forms, small scale HEP, large scale photovoltaics and more speculatively the various ocean technologies currently under development.”

Their reports and project summaries are available :

http://www.sed.manchester.ac.uk/research/beyond_nimbyism/deliverables/outputs.htm

http://www.sed.manchester.ac.uk/research/beyond_nimbyism/deliverables/reports.htm
—–

My point here is that peoples legitimate concerns are often swept under the rug by this schoolyard name calling tactic, and any text on “ecological sustainability” will rightly point out that people are part of eco-systems too.

The costs incurred by people fighting for their rights and legally objecting to unnecessary & thoughtless industrial scale developments, and therefore the costs incurred by the developer, are something that unfortunately will continue. For an example of recent court costs incurred in an ongoing wind farm case in New Zealand see ->

http://www.windaction.org/news/25042

Summary ->

“Opponents of a planned Central Otago windfarm say their David and Goliath fight with state-owned energy company Meridian has bled them dry. Heavily in debt from their successful Environment Court appeal against Meridian’s plans to spend $2 billion building a 176-turbine windfarm on the Lammermoor Range in Central Otago, they now face having to take on deep-pocketed Meridian again.”

The opponents court costs are currently at $400,000 and rising. Meridan’s tactic is similar to other wind farm developer tactics, which is to keep appealing until the on with the most money wins (i.e. the developer).

You also mentioned that I pointed at capital costs, yes thats true, that paper does only look at capital costs. But a wind or solar farm doesn’t run itself.

Wind turbines require ongoing maintenance costs (as well as decommissioning costs), as I have mentioned in other posts on BNC. The paper cited also points out, very importantly I think, that investment in US wind projects are happening mainly for the tax benefits they provide (i.e. production tax credit and accelerated depreciation).

I would like to see also see a paper that covers all the ongoing costs of renewable energy facilities, with comparisons with nuclear and fossil fuels. And that should include the hidden costs to the tax payer of all the scientific pre, during & post construction studies to investigate just what ecological damage is happening as a result of such large scale renewable deployment.

At present these scientific studies are sadly very underfunded, virtually non-existant and this an internationally recognised area of research needed to understand the effects of such large-scale installations. Such a study was also recommended in an Australian context in the NSW Inquiry into Rural Wind Farms.

The homepage of the Inquiry & report to the gov is here ->

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/parlment/committee.nsf/0/5289EFFDED250AE4CA2575E10007D079

Note the following recommendations on page 103 regarding research :

Recommendation 14
That the Minister for Planning ensure that wind farm developers comply with bird and bat
management conditions of consent. A summary of results of bird and bat monitoring,
including the number of deaths, should be published annually on the Department of
Planning website. Where the results demonstrate non-compliance with the conditions of
consent the Minister should apply appropriate penalties or action.

Recommendation 15
That the Minister for Climate Change and the Environment commission an appropriate
research project, in partnership with a relevant NSW tertiary institution, into the effects of
wind farm operations on native fauna including a monitoring project involving academics
and students.

For wildlife issues for example see this 18 page document :

Wind and Wildlife: Key Research Topics, May 2008 (18 pp.)
by the USA’s National Wind and Wildlife Collaborative available as a pdf at ->

Click to access NWCC_ResearchPriorities.pdf

which is just one of many documents outlining wildlife issues alone.

The notion that “renewable energy is free” is a classic piece of industry spin. Yes, the wind (or the sun) is freely available, the expensive part is harvesting it in a truly ecologically sustainable manner, which at present is not happening.

All the above continue to add to the costs of cutting emissions using large-scale renewables, and these costs & time frames need to be brought out into the open.

A last example regarding build times. The Taralga wind farm development proposed by RES -> http://www.res-australia.com.au/

according to their timeline began in wind resource monitoring began in 2001.
Planning approval was granted in 2007. They then claim construction commences in 2009, this did not happen, and construction still has not started. As far as I am aware the local peoples opposition court case has cost them @ $130,000. We are now in 2010, some 9 years down the track and there is no sign of construction beginning, and this timeline is not unique to Taralga, look at Conroy’s Gap for example.

Construction delay’s are also not always due to local opposition, steel & turbine prices are highly volatile as stated in the Energy Policy paper and this is something the developers use to delay construction to save money. Note in Peter’s paper the amount of concrete & steel required for wind vs nuclear on p21. See my comments on develop & delay as a wind development strategy on this thread ->

Wind and carbon emissions – Peter Lang responds

develop & sell / develop & delay as an industrial scale wind strategy is outlined in :

Kann, S (2009) Overcoming barriers to wind project finance in Australia, Energy Policy 37 p3139-3148
This paper is from the Centre for Sustainable Energy Systems @ ANU

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Cryminy Bryen, you might want to start your own blog, if you haven’t already.

“Like any modelling exercise, the uncertainties lie in the quality of the input data and the acceptability of the assumptions made.” Truer words could hardly be written, Barry. The unknown-unknowns aren’t amenable to accurate predictions so you give your best estimate and present your calculations to be dissected by the readers.

Thanks, Peter, for another excellent post.

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As the rest of the world follows similar decision paths it does not seem unlikely that deployment of some technologies will become bounded by availability of input resources. Leading up to exhaustion of resources, costs will change as availability becomes tighter.

My naive first response to this is that seeing as nuclear has a lower resource input per Kw.he generated than just about anything else, its comparative advantage over any renewables mix scenario would be accentuated by input resource shortages. Production bottlenecks, such as the shortage of heavy forging capacity for large pressure vessels may be a short-term difficulty to ramping up output, but that sort of thing can be fixed.

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Doc,

Barry has asked me to do some posts, watch this space. Hyper busy at the moment with some wind farm planning realities that have a rather acute time frame it makes uni deadlines seem like a happy memory…

I would suggest people have a good read of the NSW wind farm Inquiry submissions, hearing & report etc in readiness for what I’ll be giving to Barry.

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/parlment/committee.nsf/0/5289EFFDED250AE4CA2575E10007D079

***In particular relation to this thread though (staying on topic :) read the Inquiry Committee’s comments on GHG emissions reduction.***

Alarm bells should be ringing! Read Diesendorf’s sub and comments. Again, I hear alarm bells ringing. The Australian gov seems to think we are all “confused” about this issue & will be setting up “Precinct Manager’s” to make sure we all get the official gov line. The alarm bells are getting louder…

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With reference to Daniel’s post of yesterday where he said:

‘Last year at a talk I asked Kim Beazley why the Labor Party is against commissioning a study or at least having a debate on nuclear energy in Australia – his reply was energetic and robust (in the negative), to say the least!”

I went to a conference in Brisbane in November where Martin Ferguson (Minister for Resources and Energy) was asked about nuclear power and he was equivocal to say the least. He spun the party line that “nuclear has a place in the world energy mix – but we don’t need it in Australia”. Which is big shift from “only over my dead body”.

The government here is relying on CCS and (to a lesser extent) EGS as the long term solutions with the ability to buy overseas permits to meet their 2020 reduction targets so they see no need for nuclear power today. They will probably need to see both CCS and EGS fail before they will make the right realistic conclusion that they have to build nuclear plants to reach their 60% reduction target by 2050.

On the issue of location for these plants, in Australia it seems to make more sense to locate them were the decommissioned coal plants were. Particularly the Latrobe and Hunter Valley regions. This will be a more acceptable solution politically and those regions have the steam generation operational skills that will still be needed with LWRs plus an existing grid connection point appropriately scaled.

I don’t think we need to worry about the leaking radiation polluting the wine although I can imagine the radio talk show banter aleady.

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Another point regarding the question “why don’t we remove brown coal first?”. In practice, the rate we can remove either black or brown coal ant reasonable cost depends on how old the plants are. Realistically we will be constrained to decommissioning plants that are nearer the end of their lives. Also, if we tried to simply decommission all Victorian plants first and replace them with gas generators while doing nothing in NSW and QLD, it simply wouldn’t make sense.

The rates Peter used get rid of all Brown coal before all black coal (2035 versus 2040) and I think he’d argue that rate is probably as good as we can hope for given or current state of knowledge.

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Victoria is said to have 800 years worth of brown coal. From
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/Australia/Full.html I infer that Vic has about 120 Mt of gas with an Mt of gas able to produce about a gigawatt year of electricity I believe. Therefore brown coal will far outlast local gas particularly if as I suspect gas reserves are exaggerated.

I’ve said before I think it is bad PR to convert a dark satanic mill like Hazelwood to nuclear by switching the steam generator leaving all the other grimy bits in place. A better site would be the Wonthaggi RO desal plant under construction. That confers a clean new site and desalination independent of coal burning, noting the ‘offset’ wind farm is not yet built. I understand the Feds have offered something like $8bn to TRU Energy to switch to gas fired baseload. That could go towards the cost of a NPP.

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Firstly,

Thank you for mostly supportive comments. I certainly was not expecting this. Perhaps most are still in holiday mood and our Northern Hemisphere contributors are digging themselves out of snow drifts. I’ll address a few of the comments initially and may come back to others..

I should mention that I am most interested in the questions and comments that have a bearing on implications of the paper on policy issues – especially with the next round of Parliamentary debate about to begin on our proposed ETS/CPRS.

Alastair Breingan, on January 9th, 2010 at 7.43

The matter of the effect of energy efficency and demand side management was a major issue in ABARE’s modelling for the Ecologially Sustainable Development in the early 1990’s. At that time, many NGO’s and sepcialist consultants were arguing that the demand growth rate should be less that ABARE was using. ABARE said they were happy to run the models with other growth rates. They did so and presented the options. However they and others pointed out that the economists projections based on past experience allow for the unknown unknowns. They pointed out at the time we could never have forseen how internet would reduce the fuel used in courier services but also how electrcity demand would increase due to unforseen new demands. To cut this short, I expect that the improvements in energy efficency will be swamped by the increases as we move to electrification of land transport (or the production of synthetic fuels using electrcity) and other unknown-unknowns.

As Finrof pointed out, most First of a Kind projects suffer cost blow outs. But they decrease as more of the plants are built. The off-shore wind farms are suffering massive blow outs too. The cost of wind farms has doubled in Australia over recent years compared with what the wind advocates were predicting.

Doug Bostrom, on January 9th, 2010 at 8.44

Cooling is included in the capital cost estimates and the price of electricity. Refer to the references by MIT (2009) and EPRI (2009).

Scott Elaurant, on January 9th, 2010 at 8.55 Said:

Noting the energy intensities of each source (Table 1) one obvious question is why don’t we phase out brown coal power plants first, then black coal second?

Good question. Barry has answered this and I agree. The least cost option is to shut down the coal fired power stations when they are approaching the end of their economic lives. Also, it seems unlikely that we would shut down power stations in Victoria and not in NSW, Queensland, SA and WA. I simply cannot see that happening.

Daniel, on January 9th, 2010 at 13.32

Daniel, I’ll answer your questions in a separate post.

seth, on January 9th, 2010 at 16.52, Good points. You have stated that more clearly than I could.

Douglas Wise, on January 10th, 2010 at 1.14. I’ll address this post separately (But I’m inclined to leave my response until next decade – joke alert!).

John Newlands, on January 10th, 2010 at 8.19. Please refer to the ACIL_Tasman report for projected fuel costs. It projects all fuel cost to 2028-29. The projections are sophisticated and certainly as good as we could expect. As I pointed out, I do not have up to date LCOE values for the existing power stations. If anything, I expect these are significantly less than I have stated, perhaps as low as $28/MWh. If so, it means the CO2 Avoidance cost is much higher. The projections of the electricity cost from the replacement coal technologies are a good as we have available. The experience with wind power so far is that itr is far higher cost than was expected by the advocates. The capital cost is twice what was expected and the electrcity cost is far higher too. I’d be much more concerned about the reliability of wind and solar prices than of coal. I’d expect, of all the electrcity cost projections we have, coal is by far the best known and has the least risk (excluding the effects of givernment policy interventions of course). Another point that is not widely appreciated yet is that the expected life of wind turbines is nowhere near what was projected.

John Newlands, on January 10th, 2010 at 10.31
You say:

I would point out that wind and solar with 20+ year life times have what I’d call ‘low regret’.

Many would disagree with that statement. Firstly, the life times in practice are proving to be nowhere near 20 years. Secondly, the wind farms are looking to be the “high regrets” option – supplying low value energy at high cost, not cutting CO2 emissions, many environmental problems and negligible benefits,

You implied that you think wind power is a “low carbon option” I am wondering if you’ve actually digested the paper. Wind with gas back-up saves negligible emisisons compared with gas alone (Figure 7), but costs more than twice as much (Figure 10). The avoidance cost of wind with gas back-up is three to four times higher than nuclear and at least twice as much as gas alone. It seems to be bad policy to mandate renewable energy for electricity generation.

Doug Bostrom, on January 10th, 2010 at 12.45

Doug, I’ll come back to this later.

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Daniel

You asked (2010-01-09 13:32):

I just wanted to ask how you would take into account the cost of storing the spent nuclear fuel and whether there were any projections on the price of Uranium from 2020+ that could be added to the analysis.

This is a really good question. The cost of once-used fuel storage/disposal and of decommissioning is included in the electricity cost projections (see the references quoted in the pdf version of the paper, eg MIT, 2009 and EPRI, 2009).

The quantities of once-used fuel are miniscule compared with the toxic emisisons from the other electricity generation technologies. This photo is of the containers which hold all the once-used fuel from 30 years of production of a nuclear power plant (185 MW, 44 TWh). It has now been decommissioned.
http://www.nukeworker.com/pictures/displayimage-5205-fullsize.html

Also, I think this statement may be overly optimistic and is without reference to the current and historical political sentiment towards nuclear in Australia: ‘Nuclear would be built near population centres’, p. 12.

I recognise we have a serious problem with perception of nuclear energy in Australia. But if we don’t get over it, nuclear will be a high cost option for Australia’s electricity generation. We need to get over this perception problem. If nuclear plants have to be built away from the population areas and away from the coast this will be a clear signal that we are not ready to embrace nuclear energy.

The picture here is of Pickering, and eight unit nuclear power station, nicely nestled in the suburbs of Toronto, Canada’s largest city.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/ecsgallery/imageDisplay.aspx?id=10584&Page=19
It has been operating for nearly 40 years. There is no fear here. All over the world, once people engage with nuclear energy, the fear and revulsion goes away. They’d much prefer to have nuclear than fossil fuels.

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Martin Nicholson – I agree, you would think that if constituents are prepared to live near coal fired generators, a nuclear reactor shouldn’t cause much of a stir. Of course, the transmission infrastructure is already in place as well.

Last year the Government announced it’s $4.5 billion clean energy initiative. Of this the biggest winners were CCS, solar and geothermal. Not one cent has gone into any form of study on nuclear power. Over $200 million has gone towards geothermal – of which companies in Australia are conducting proof of concept on ‘hot rock’ technology. The first of its kind in the world and obviously, inherently risky because of this. AEMO have also just released their National Transmission Strategy Report, part of which looks at connecting remote renewable energy sources to the grid, such as geothermal.

Bryen – your comment about legitimate (or perceived) concerns being swept under the rug is spot on. I would also add to that comment legitimate political concerns. No politician looking to be reelected would advocate a nuclear policy in Australia today. Unfortunately, no amount of technical or economic analysis will change this.

Howard was in Office for 11 years, Hawke/Keating 13 years before him, and if the polls hold up Labor will be in Office for the next two decades as well! I believe Labor’s anti-nuclear position is one of their last ideological differences from the LNP and don’t see it changing any time soon.

Rational? Irrelevant.

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What are the policy implications of this analysis?

I’d suggest they are:

1. Mandating renewable energy is bad policy

2. If we are serious about cutting GHG emissions, we’d better get serious about implementing nuclear energy as soon as possible.

3. If we want to implement nuclear power we’ll need to focus on how to do so at least cost, not with the sorts of high cost regimes imposed in USA and EU.

4. We should not raise the cost of electricity. We must do all we can to bring clean electricity to our industries and residents at a cost no higher than the least cost option.

5. Therefore, ETS/CPRS is exactly the wrong policy.

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Hi Peter,

Thanks for the follow-up. Along with storage I also see that South Korea store their waste in containers on a hydraulic (moveable) bed (referred to in Switkowski Report) as it is an earthquake prone area! Great bit of ingenuity!

Yeah – I also agree with the problem of nuclear perceptions. It’s too easy to play populist politics when referring to any sort of nuclear program. Just thought you might have been a little bit generous with that statement, if nuclear power is realised in Australia, I don’t think the reactor(s) will be built near population centres. For the sake of getting nuclear in the door – prob best not to sell it on this point and pay a bit extra in transmission costs.

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Doug Bostrom, on January 10th, 2010 at 12.45

Doug, I’ll come back to this later.

Great, and looking forward to it. I understand in advance that it”ll stretch prognostication abilities but I think it’s an area that needs hard scrutiny.

If (as we hope) the world marches more or less in lock step toward fixing our fossil carbon habit I just have to think we’ll see a powerful shockwave of demand for physical resources and capital on a global scale. WWII is the nearest analogy I can think of, if our response is to be usefully rapid.

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Byen,


Firstly, regarding your use of the term “NIMBYism….

I completely agree. The worst way to tackle a public concern is to call it a “perception” problem. By doing this we would be blaming the people and that immidiately puts them on the defensive and really angers them. This reminds me of the way US govt thinks about the US “pr” problem in the middle east. It is not just a marketing problem – it is a policy issue.

I think concerns raised should be squarely and directly addressed. Afterall nuclear safety concersn are not trivial (anyone here wants to tell us what would have happenned if the planes had hit nuke plants instead ?).

Yes, grave environmental issues exist with coal plants( shale gas, oil drilling etc). Thats why nobody wants a coal plant in their backyard either. Industry has a long record of not cleaning up after an accident. The companies can declare bankruptcy and go away (see Jared’s Collapse – chapter on Montana for eg.).

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Evnow.

You said:

The worst way to tackle a public concern is to call it a “perception” problem. By doing this we would be blaming the people and that immidiately puts them on the defensive and really angers them.

Good point. I’ll take that on board too.

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Evnow,

I do haver to take issue with this statement:

“Afterall nuclear safety concersn are not trivial (anyone here wants to tell us what would have happenned if the planes had hit nuke plants instead ?).”

Would you like to tell us what would happen if a plane hit a NPP, preferably a Gen III as that is what we will beuilding in the foreseable future. Please don’t just guess and throw up anti-nuclear alarmist propoganda. Do the research. The consequences are well understood, but not by the general public.

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I’m still to read the paper properly, but have noted there is no mention of geothermal as an option. Is this deliberate? As Daniel has notes, it’s still at proof-of-concept stage. Does this mean it’s still too early to make any reasonable quantifiable assumptions about it?

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Alexander Ač, on January 11th, 2010 at 10.27 — Here in the Pacfic Northwest “energy efficiency” is going to be pushed hard as by far the least expensive option. For example, Portland Oregon has an ambitious plan to reduce eletricity consumption by an amazing 40%!

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Doug Bostrom, on January 10th, 2010 at 12.45 Said:

As the rest of the world follows similar decision paths it does not seem unlikely that deployment of some technologies will become bounded by availability of input resources. Leading up to exhaustion of resources, costs will change as availability becomes tighter.

Lang’s writeup as it stands is a compelling argument for nuclear generation but with a population of less than 22,000,000 it is not the place where prices are set for resources needed to build generation systems of any style.

If any revision/extension were done on this work, it would be great to see some discussion on what happens with the costs of various systems under consideration with a view beyond Australia’s horizon. The conclusion may remain unchanged but such considerations would improve confidence

I am getting continually sidetracked so I am not going to be able to put the time I had intended into answering your comment. So here a short reply.

Regarding the industrial capacity to manufacture the heavy components needed for Gen III reactors, I have no doubt that the world’s manufacturing capacity will meet the demand shortly after the demand is established. The comment by makes the point clearly.

Regarding resources, I see no shortage of the resources needed. In fact, the resources required for wind and solar are far more than for nuclear. The mining and follow on disturbances are also far greater for renewables than for nuclear Barry presented an entire post on this matter at: https://bravenewclimate.com/2009/10/18/tcase4/ and I have contributed previous posts on this on the BNC web site.

There are limits on fossil fuels that will affect us in the foreseeable future. But other mineral resources are different. As we need more we explore more and find more. The quantity of Uranium in the continental crust is the same as tin and zinc. We are not going to run out of them for a very long time. We simply improve our exploration methods to find new deposits. Fossil fuels are different. They occur only in sedimentary rocks, and only in a very small percentage of sedimentary rocks. And sedimentary rocks comprise a very thin veneer of rocks on the Earths surface. Fossil fuels are limited. Other mineral deposits are not.

My conclusion:

1. Manufacturing capability will meet demand within a few years of the demand being realised

2. There is no shortage of the mineral deposits needed for nuclear energy

3. If there was any shortage of the minerals needed for nuclear energy then it would be a far greater constraint for renewables than it would be for nuclear energy.

If any revision/extension were done on this work, it would be great to see some discussion on what happens with the costs of various systems under consideration with a view beyond Australia’s horizon.

I agree with your suggestion. However, I cannot take it on at the moment. The studies referenced such as MIT (2009), EPRI (2009a) and EPRI (2009b) do take projected future fuel costs into account in their analyses. IEA, EIA and NWA all address these issues in various ways. The TCASE3 article also contains references.

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Mark Duffett, on January 11th, 2010 at 11.22 Said:

I’m still to read the paper properly, but have noted there is no mention of geothermal as an option. Is this deliberate? As Daniel has notes, it’s still at proof-of-concept stage. Does this mean it’s still too early to make any reasonable quantifiable assumptions about it?

Mark, I had to keep the analysis simple. Six options was all I could manage. Carbon Capture and Storage (for electricity generation) and geothermal (Hot Fractured Rock) are in the early stages of RD&D. There are no commerical plants of either operating anywhere in the world yet.

Also, the paper was a response to questions and suggestions by Neil Howes and Alexei on the Solar Power Realities and the Solar Power Realities – Addendum threads. The questions are stated in the Introduction to the paper.

ACIL-Tasman gives projected electricity prices for both. However, these should be considered to be much less certain than the prices for coal and gas.

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Peter Lang — When you have a bit of time, might care to look into the Oregon-based Nuscale company’s nuclear reactor design. From the brief article about it in The New York Times several weeks ago, it seems to offer some important advantages over other, existing Gen III designs. Might even be less expensive…

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Peter L re your points 4 and 5 I doubt anything will happen without an administratively imposed carbon price that has few loopholes. In our notional democracy it would be difficult to simply command that most generation is very low carbon. Electricity consumers will question the need for anything but coal and gas even if nuclear was the same price. A CO2 cap or fixed unit price will force change by via the pain of paying increased electricity and fuel bills. If the revenue is reimbursed in the form of efficiency measures then that pain is minimised.

The MRET itself illustrates this. To get to 45,000 Gwh by 2020 I believe we’ll need another 20,000 Gwh or more from non-hydro renewables in the next decade, or more than 2 Gw continuous. I don’t see it happening simply because government edicts not backed by penalties create little fear.
However directly raising the cost of coal makes everybody sit up and take notice. I suspect that several electricity firms would like to go nuke but can’t justify it in the absence of a stiff carbon price.

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David B Benson,

Thank you. I may if I get a chance. However, as you know, since we’ve been commenting for well over 6 months now on the BNC web site, I try to stick to using figures from the most authoritiative sites. Of course this is not always possible, and when blogging I’ll often post information that has recently come to me – sometimes “off the back of a truck”. There is a lot of information being published and no one has the time to look at it all, so we have to allow impartial, authoritative organisations to vet the information, compile it and do appropriate comparisons on an equal footing. The MIT and EPRI references cited in the text give an idea of what is involved in doing this. So a study such as you mentioned, and the references you often give on algae farms for example, are of little interest to me.

Thank you for letting me know; it has given me the opportunity to explain why I generally don’t get involved in discussing the many fringe renewable energy proposals.

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David B. Benson, on January 11th, 2010 at 11.38 Said:

Here in the Pacfic Northwest “energy efficiency” is going to be pushed hard as by far the least expensive option. For example, Portland Oregon has an ambitious plan to reduce eletricity consumption by an amazing 40%!

I am a bit sceptical about substantial reductions in electricity unless it is accompanied with substantial reductions in productivity and hence GDP.

Did Portland give any indication of how long they thought it would take to reduce electricity consumption by 40%?

There is a clearly demonstrated close correlation between GDP and energy use (commonly referred to as energy intensity). See http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tablee1p.xls

It does not vary greatly across developed economies and has only improved by 18% in North America over the last 10 years. Clearly the rate of improvement must slow over time not accelerate (we can’t get down to zero energy use).

This means it could take Portland 30 years to reduce electricity use by 40% through efficiency measures. If Portland has any plans to grow and prosper it will take even longer.

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“I agree with your suggestion. However, I cannot take it on at the moment.”

Thank you for taking the time you did. It’s a whole topic in itself, really.

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Once small (250 MWe or less) centrally mass produced floating sea based and land based nuclear reactors become a commercial reality late in the decade, the capital cost of nuclear power is going to fall dramatically during the 2020s and 2030s along with the price of electricity from those sources.

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Marcel F. Williams

True. Unless we make it impossible to build them through overly restrictive regulations, bureaucracy and shifting risk that should be accpted by the state to the owners and investors. That is the problem we need to address in Australia. And we should not follow the USA or EU precedents..

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Martin Nicholson, on January 11th, 2010 at 15.04 — I don’t know how long the plan is expected to take, but the example of California, with efficiency measures balancing population growth for 30 years now, shows that considerable energy efficiencies are possible in the USA.

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Ray Kurzweil in a recent interview spoke of the improving efficiency of solar cells:

Interviewer question: Do you see the GNR technologies coming on line to mitigate that kind of a catastrophe?

RK: Absolutely. Those projections are based on linear thinking, as if nothing‘s going to happen over the next 50 or 100 years. It‘s ridiculous. For example, we‘re applying nanotechnology to solar panels. The cost per watt of solar energy is coming down dramatically. As a result, the amount of solar energy is growing exponentially. It‘s doubling every two years, reliably, for the last 20 years. People ask, “Is there really enough solar energy to meet all of our energy needs?” It‘s actually 10,000 times more than we need. And yes you lose some with cloud cover and so forth, but we only have to capture one part in 10,000. If you put efficient solar collection panels on a small percentage of the deserts in the world, you would meet 100% of our energy needs. And there‘s also the same kind of progress being made on energy storage to deal with the intermittency of solar. There are only eight doublings to go before solar meets100% of our energy needs. We‘re awash in sunlight and these new technologies will enable us to capture that in a clean and renewable fashion. And then, geothermal — you have the potential for incredible amounts of energy.

Global warming — regardless of what you think of the models and whether or not it‘s been human-caused —it‘s only been one degree Fahrenheit in the last 100 years. There just isn‘t a dramatic global warming so far. I think there are lots of reasons we want to move away from fossil fuels, but I would not put greenhouse gasses at the top of the list.

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John Newlands, on January 11th, 2010 at 12.55 Said:

Peter L re your points 4 and 5 I doubt anything will happen without an administratively imposed carbon price that has few loopholes.

John, Thank you for your comment. I think this is an extremely important issue. I want to discuss this some more but I am falling behind in answering comments. So until I can catch up, I hope you might take another look at this thread https://bravenewclimate.com/2010/01/02/investment-we-arent-making/
and especially at my replies to posts by Ewen Laver and David Walters. My posts explain why I believe we must focus on reducing the cost of clean energy so it is competive with coal rather than raise the cost of fossil fuel energy. I intend to say more later, but hope you can look at those replies of mine first.

I hope others who are interested in the policy implications of the “Emission Cuts Realities” paper might also look at https://bravenewclimate.com/2010/01/02/investment-we-arent-making/ thread and my replies to Ewen Laver and David Walters for background to my thoughts on this matter.

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Martin Nicholson, on January 12th, 2010 at 9.58 — California’s GDP is so high that if it were a separate country it would rank in the uppermost few.

Which shows that electricity consumption is not that well correlated with wealth, past some sort of minimum. For some comparisons, try North Carolina versus various states of Europe. And so on.

Probably the main point is that in the USA people have become quite profligate in energy usage and now need to learn to be wealthy more along a European standard. Or even more efficient.

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Peter, you really are performing a tremendous public service. Thanks for another important contribution.

On policy implications, the important question is how to ensure your analyses feed in to actually setting policy. This looks like the sort of analysis ABARE or a similar body should be doing. Do you have any thoughts on how best to convey your analyses to policy makers, or to have your conclusions confirmed by independent analysis?

Do you think there would be value in preparing your work for publication in a peer reviewed journal? (One of the criticisms I’ve seen in discussion of your work in other fora is the whinge that it is not ‘peer reviewed’. A cheap shot, IMO, which could be rectified by publication, or by independent analysis.)

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Somehow I missed that levelling up vs. levelling down thread but since the topic is now efficiency here’s what I think is a new idea; we could save the first 5 Gw average via efficiency quicker and cheaper than building new renewables. The way to do it could be based on higher carbon prices combined with low pain ways to reduce consumption such as insulation and smart meters. We could also introduce soft rationing with basic allowances for gas and electricity that quickly step up to premium rates. This is the approach water authorities are adopting to soft ration water use.

However I’m not sure aggressive efficiency can co-exist with the ~4% economic growth which some consider a necessary goal. We also need to cover Australia’s recent annual population growth of 2%. Meanwhile reserve depletion and overseas demand will raise fossil fuel prices with or without carbon taxes. Therefore we’ll have to learn to use less FF sooner or later. What we have now is a worst-of-both-worlds situation in which we kid ourselves a few renewables make a difference while in reality we remain as FF dependent as ever.

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Douglas Wise, on January 10th, 2010 at 1.14 Said:
Peter,

A hugely interesting and important post. Congratulations on all the thought and hard work that went into its production. I think you have convincingly demonstrated that any Western government that promises significant emissions reductions relative to 1990 levels by 2050 has no chance without either a large nuclear contribution or the impoverishment of its citizens, notwithstanding efficiency improvements.

However, you were very supportive of Steve Kirsch’s quote to the effect that, without alternatives for electric power being cheaper than coal, we’re f—ed. I would therefore like to invite you to pursue this point a bit further. Your present post shows nuclear electricity to be nearly double the cost of coal electricity. I accept that one can’t necessarily expect new nuclear plants to produce at a lower cost than already built coal plants. What I have been unable to ascertain is how much capital cost one can afford for nuclear so that it can compete against new coal under the two following scenarios: a) without any internalisation of coal’s currently externalised non CO2 costs and b) with such internalisation.

Thank you for the supportive comments. I understand your question and the scenarios a) and b). I’ll have to come back to this in a later post. It is an important issue. In the meantime, ExternE project http://www.externe.info/ estimated the externalities costs for the various electricity generation costs. It is a thorough job. How to internalise the cost is the big problem. We have not been successful in 30 years of looking at this. The politics of it is nearly impossible. We can spend another 30 years playing around with it or recognise there is a much easier way – get rid of the impediments that are dramatically raising (perhaps doubling) the cost of the most realistic, low-emissions alternative – nuclear energy. ACIL Tasman provides projections to 2029 of capital costs and electricity generation costs for coal, gas, coal and gas with CCS, nuclear and geothermal generated electricity in Australia. The projected electrcity costs are for the case with and without $10/tonne CO2-e emissions. The ACIL-Tasman estimated capital costs in AUD in 2010 are as follows: nuclear (the first plant) = $5207; Ultra Super Critical Black Coal (air cooled) = $2451; IGCC = $3705.

You use ACIL-Tasman (2009) to arrive at projected nuclear build cost of A$ 5207. In your post 41555, you cite a Korean contract price of US$ 3800 and go on to speculate that it might be possible to conceive of the possibility of getting costs down to US$ 2000. Is there a simple, approximate way to translate capital costs into likely electricity costs?

Let me clarify those figures first. The ACIL-Tasman figure of A$5207/kW is a theoretical cost for a First of a Kind (FOAK) nuclear power plant in Australia. It is theoretical because the cost is for the year 2009-2010. Once the first one is built (ACIL-Tasman asumes this is in 2025) ACIL-Tasman projects a rapid reduction in the capital costs – to $4263/kW over 4 years. The point to note is that the $5207 is a FOAK cost and ACIL-Tasman projects a sharp reduction as more are built. Now let’s consider the cost for the UAE NPPs. The US$3800/kW is wrong and also it needs to be converted to AUD for comparison with all the other figures in the “Emission Cuts Ralities” paper. The cost should be US$3704/kW (US$20 billion / 4 x 1350 MW). This is A$4115. So now we have a competitive bid for FOAK build of four 1350 MW power stations using AP1400 reactors. The comparison is UAE = A$4115 and Australia (projected) A$5207. Both are FOAK.

You have also been suggesting that build costs for nuclear are excessively high in part due to a culture in the West of excessive/redundant safety. You have gone so far as to mention safety expenditure was one or more orders of magnitude too high. In your opinion, how much could be saved by opting for extremely safe rather than ridiculously safe?

Without researching it, here is my guesstimate:

Nuclear is currently (Gen II history) some 10 to 100 times safer than coal. I expect we could have nuclear at 9 to 90 times safer than coal for around 50% reduction in cost. We could build them on the coast (lower cooling costs), near the demand centres (less transmission costs, lower costs for workforce, lower costs for construction, operation and maintenance throughout the plan life), we could accept the investment risks that are best owned by the public (such as public mischief, legal interventions and delays during construction, and sovereign risk), etc.

If you don’t think that nuclear can compete with coal on the current unlevel playing field or even were coal’s non CO2 emissions costs to be internalised, what level of carbon tax would be necessary to make nuclear competitive (using a range of nuclear build cost assumptions)?

Off the top of my head, A$20 to $40/tonne CO2. But I do not believe a Carbon tax or ETS is the preferred way to proceed. I believe it would be better to address the unlevel playing field.

Please don’t take any of the above as criticism. I appreciate that it might seem churlish to ask for yet more information immediately following your current magnus opus. However, your contributions are too valuable to put you out to pasture.

Thank you for your comment. It is very encouraging and the matters you raise have important policy consequences. It is the policy issues that I would like to see discussed more fully on this forum. I do not believe raising the cost of electrcity is the best way to proceed for humanity, for the poor, for future generations, or for the environment.

I am convinced we can have low emissions electricity in Australia at a cost that is competitive with coal and it can be far safer and far less environmentally damaging. Let’s have the debate on this forum.

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John D Morgan,

Thank you for your comment and encouragement. I would really like to submit a paper to a peer reviewed journal. I’d need to do it together with another experienced person, at least for the first one.

I am a bit concerned that the papers I’ve written so far are more like consultancy reports than the sort of paper that is submitted to peer reviewd journal. However, an email that was forwarded to me this morning encourages me. The email was between colleagues at MIT and said as follows:

From another direction, I came across a paper that examines various scenarios about cutting emissions through changing sources of electric power. Although this paper is Australia-specific, it’s methodology may be applicable for similar ways of looking at the American energy supply of the future. Conversely, if you disagree with the methodology, I’d be interested in learning your reasons why.

I agree these analyses should be done by ABARE, Treasury, Department of Industry, Productivity Commission, AER and AEMO. But they are not. I’ve tried to discuss some basic issues with DCC about CO2 emissions intensity from electricity generation.

I don’t know how to influence policy. It is very tied up in politics, and the looming election. Being seen to be anti-nuclear is a clear electoral advantage in Australia.

But I would love to work with others to do whatever we can.

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John,

Could you look through the paper and suggest the assumptions and inputs that you would like to see changed. Please provide a source for the figures. I am sure you’d agree, we would need a set of consistent figures for all technologies and all years in the projection, otherwise the analysis is simply a nonsense of cherry picked bits and pieces.

I note you mention 4% projected GDP growth. I’ve never seen a figure as high as that for long term growth for Australia. I seriously soubt that eficciency improvements will offset rising demand for electrcity. But I’d be interested to see what information you have on that matter. Certainly, neither ABARE nor Treasury are projecting that.

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David B. Benson, on January 12th, 2010 at 11.36 Said:

“California’s GDP is so high that if it were a separate country it would rank in the uppermost few.”

I was really asking about GDP per capita. I did a very quick bit of checking and I know it’s a bit anacdotal but sure California is the biggest state by GDP but is only 11th by GDP/capita.

It is actually only 38th by GDP/capita growth. This may or may not be related to energy usage per capita.

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Peter, Barry’s your obvious co-author. You’re right that this needs to be turned from a consultants report into a research report, but I believe the research content is there to support that. The main thing lacking in current form I think is some review and contextualization within the existing literature.

I’m not sure where you’d publish. Is this an energy paper, a policy paper, or an economics paper? I’m sure there are suitable journals though. The only reservation I have about publication is hitting a vexatious reviewer. How would you like to have Mark Jacobson as your anonymous referee?

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John,

Thank you. I agree about the potential for a vexacious reviewer. The wind paper on this web site was sent to the Premiers of NSW, Victoria, SA and ACT, and to the Minsiters for Environment, Energy and Industry in each state and the Federal Government. Most politicians gave polite do-nothing responses or advised me it was not their responsibility and they had sent it to another Minister. I received two genuine responses. One suggested I get it peer reviewed and suggested the organisation where Mark Diesendorf works.

The Federal Government charged ASIC with conducting an enquiry into “misleading claims about GHG emissions”.

I also sent it to the “Energy News”, but they are in league with the renewable energy research scientists. After much delay they told me it is not the sort of thing they want to publish.

I don’t have a lot of energy to put into this sort of nonsense. That is why I need to work with someone else who can cut through. I agree it needs to be properly submitted and properly peer reviewed. But I see an enormous amount of work ahead. I’m just typing want is going on in my mind on this.

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Chris, Kurzweil has a faith in magic. (The “Singularity”? Please ..) Just because he calls his magic “nanotechnology” in this instance does not embed it in physical reality. When he talks about “linear thinking”, that’s just content free rhetoric. When he talks about being “only” eight doublings away from solar panels providing all necessary energy, he’s making the same error of judgement as investment analysts who believe the economy can grow exponentially forever, or people who think Moore’s Law applies to any technology.

Douglas Hofstadter said of Kurzweil (and another author), “It’s as if you took a lot of very good food and some dog excrement and blended it all up so that you can’t possibly figure out what’s good or bad. It’s an intimate mixture of rubbish and good ideas, and it’s very hard to disentangle the two, because these are smart people; they’re not stupid.” After listening to a talk from Kurweil recently I’d have to agree – he’s off with the fairies.

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Generally speaking, although the reviewers are anonymous, they’d be chosen by a commissioning editor for their competence in assessing key parts of the paper — so I imagine someone with engineering expertise in Peter’s area or surveying would be chosen.

A hostile reviewer can’t simply be hostile. They have to offer reasoning and if the reasoning is bogus or frivolous it embarrasses the commissioning editor more than anyone else.

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Correct Ewen, and generally, the authors are given a chance to provide a rejoinder, especially if not all reviewers are dissenting. It’s part and parcel of the peer review process that I’ve experienced (suffered through) more than 150 times over the last 10 or so years :)

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Peter, I had a chat on how to get some policy traction on nuclear over Christmas with my father, who’s a veteran of many environmental campaigns (and now a nukie). He met one of Goss’s ministers (QLD Premier in the 90s) who described how Cabinet would consider environmental issues (and others). It went something like,

Environment minister raises agenda item.
Goss to Forestry minister: “You had any letters on this?” “No.”
Goss to Resources minister: “You?” “No.”
Goss: “OK. Next item ..”

You’ve got to write to them (which you’ve done), and not just the single responsible minister.

This is similar to Obama’s response to someone advocating some cause I don’t recall: “Show me the movement”. We’ve got to show them the movement. Which means there has to be a movement. I don’t know what the next step is, but it needs to be political.

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Peter,

I’d second the suggestions to try and get this out to a larger audience somehow, whether or not that’s in the peer-reviewed literature.

It’s a great analysis but I’m very aware of how ‘nuclear friendly’ this blog has become (this is not a criticism, btw)- which does mean that your paper won’t get validation from surviving more ‘hostile’ reviews. I wish I had the time and the engineering/economics background to critique it properly, but apart from anything else I’m just as likely to add to the BNC ‘echo chamber effect’, having been largely won round to the prevailing POV by your (and Barry’s) previous posts.

Only thing I was really struck by was the assumption of steadily rising electricity demand. I haven’t looked at your original source but presumably this has much to do with Australia’s population growth? I’d be interested to know how generalisable this is to other countries, and also the effect that picking the ‘low hanging fruit’ of efficiency measures might have (whether it might cancel out the effect of any increased demand due to electrifying transport etc).

You’ve put a huge amount of work into the paper and (I hope no offence to the other commenters here)– it really deserves a different audience.

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re #42554 Peter Lang (Jan 12th)

Many thanks for your response to my previous comments. I would like to summarise the presumptions I have made as a consequence of what you have written and then make a few further observations:

Presumptions

1) You suggest that Australian nuclear electricity could initially be produced at a price some 88% greater than the current cost of electricity from coal.
2) The cost of constructing a FOAK nuclear plant can be projected to be 18% more than than the equivalent cost 4 years down the road.
3) The 18% reduction will still leave nuclear uncompetitive in straight economic terms.
4) A more favourable regulatory regime for nuclear could halve the cost of construction without having a significant adverse effect on safety.
5) Under the scenario outlined in 4), nuclear electricity would be no more costly and, possibly, cheaper than coal electricity.
6) Your opinion is that carbon emissions should neither be capped nor taxed.

Observations

1) I was talking to an asset rich cash poor large scale farmer in the UK yesterday who had just been visited by a senior Bank of England civil servant who was examining the health of the agricultural sector. The farmer was bemoaning the fact that the privilege of being allowed to grow wheat and rape for the nation had resulted in his having had a trading loss of £250000 for the year. The civil servant told him to be of good cheer. It has been dawning on the UK government that farmers should grow food rather than be park keepers now that our City Traders are no longer able to sustain us in the manner they saw fit, having first taken their bonuses. He stressed that it was being increasingly realised that both food and energy security were important and had been, in the recent past, neglected. The farmer, therefore, could expect more incentives to produce his wheat in the future. The civil servant continued the discussion by giving his views on Copenhagen. It was his opinion that anyone who thought that politicians from 160 nations could agree a deal on emissions reductions were living in cloud cuckoo land. He was open minded over climate change but absolutely certain in his own mind that the nations of the world would never agree (or certainly not all adhere to ) any restrictions that threatenened their economic growth.
2) The day before yesterday, I had dinner with a friend who is the CE of a mining company operating in the Third World. His company has thousands of hectares of concessions and, having done its exploratory bits, is seeking large amounts of capital to rip up the countryside to extract smallish concentrations of that massively important and valuable mineral (for jewellery), gold. I asked him about power . He replied that they were intending to build a coal fired power plant. He was surprised to learn that nuclear batteries existed (perhaps they don’t to the extent that they can’t be bought off the peg and perhaps they wouldn’t be affordable anyway) but thought they sounded a good idea. He had just read Ian Plimer’s book and was so impressed that he gave it to his daughter in law for Christmas. She had responded with the gift to him of the full IPCC Report. Unfortunately, it was too heavy for him to take on his imminent flight to his concession.
3) The UK government has just approved a massive offshore wind development (enough for 5 million homes no less!). This has coincided with a very cold period during which the wind has had the temerity not to blow. (In theory, we should be getting 5% of our energy from wind but, because of its absent mindedness, we have only obtained 0.2%.) Meanwhile, the Norwegian gas pipeline which supplies us sprung a leak (noone mentioned the methane) and we had little gas stored. Several industrial users were closed down, enabling the rest of us to sit in our shirtsleaves watching television because the roads were blocked with snow, schools closed and we’were clean out of grit (and gumption).

Conclusions

The examples above, gleaned by coincidence over the last 48 hours, are strongly supportive of the views held by Steve Kirsch and Peter Lang, namely that the only hope we have of saving ourselves from climate catastrophe is to produce energy in quantity from a carbon free source at a price equal to or cheaper than that which can be produced from coal. At present, that has almost certainly to be from nuclear fission but carbon free alternatives should not be barred, regardless of their likely greater costs.

However, it occurs to me that even a level price would not guarantee a successful outcome without some degree of coercion. Without it, some companies or nations would still consider extending the longevity of existing coal plants, extracting oil from shale and tar sands or using coal to liquid technology for transport fuels.

I think it may therefore still be necessary to map out fairly stringent and verifyable emissions reduction targets. One would not necessarily expect that all nations would sign up to them. However, this is where the coercion would be required. Non signatories or non performing signatory states should be subject to trade restraints/embargoes/tariffs. This might be a very naive and unworkable idea. Even if workable, it would require a huge amount of effort and expertise to come up with the necessary level of detail that would be required for successful implementation.

It would be interesting to hear comments from others on alternative conclusions or suggestions.

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Peter Lang, on January 12th, 2010 at 15.57 — What you have is certainlyt worth the effort of obtaining peer-reviewed publication in a suitable energy policy related journal. If both you and Barry Brook are willing to jointly publish, then fine.

It is not important that even the reviewers agree with your conclusions; just that the methods and sources are sound. Someone reaching a different conclusion could then publish a rebuttal. However, within the limitations you set yourself (reasonable ones IMO) I believe you are one of the few to set out a clear path to a less CO2 intese future.

Gopher It, as is said around here.

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Peter, I’d consider finding an economist co-author, and publishing in an economics journal (I’m pretty sure there are several operating at the interface between economics and energy). My impression is that this route is the most likely to get these conclusions on the radar of the policy-making domain, where they need to be.

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Martin Nicholson, on January 12th, 2010 at 14.15 — I checked
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita_(nominal)
in which the combined influences of US goverment and NYC explain all but #4, #7 (energy extracvtion, nobody actually makes much money in at least Wyoming) and the surprises of #9 and #10, both of which are northerly and so the cost of living is higher than in #11, California.

So I’ll use this as a further indication that once some minimal level of energy is available, factors othr than energy are more important in wealth generation.

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Thank you all for the support and encouragement. Barry and I are progressing on preparing the paper for submission for publication as a peer reviewed paper. Barry will be the senior author for many good reasons. I am completely in agreement with that. I don’t have the contacts, nor the skill set, nor the perserverance/patience to take the lead role through what is ahead. Thank you to Barry, John D Morgan, Ewen Laver, geodoc. Douglas Wise, David B Benson. Mark Buffet for your encouragement. It now in train.

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Geodoc

You commented:

Only thing I was really struck by was the assumption of steadily rising electricity demand. I haven’t looked at your original source but presumably this has much to do with Australia’s population growth? I’d be interested to know how generalisable this is to other countries, and also the effect that picking the ‘low hanging fruit’ of efficiency measures might have (whether it might cancel out the effect of any increased demand due to electrifying transport etc).

I’d like to ask Martin Nicholson to address this question. he is mor up to date on this than I am.

In the meantime, I’ll just comment that I am not aware of any authoritative projections that show a decrease in electricity consumption, anywhere. Some authoritative sources you may want to look up on this are:

IEA, EIA, ABARE, Treasury.

Here is a link to Treasury: http://www.treasury.gov.au/lowpollutionfuture/report/html/03_Chapter3.asp. You can get to the other chapters from here.

I’d also add that we’ve been through the optimisitc beliefs in what can realistically be achieved with efficiency improvements before. I expect a very small part of wehat is being advocated can really be achieved economically.

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Douglas Wise. Another great post. Very interesting your two experiences in the past 24 hours and their implications for policy. I agree with almost all you say.

I am open minded on the matter of eventually having to have an ETS on carbon emissions. But I am not in a hurry to implement it. Once implemented it can never be undone (property rights are involved). So we’d better be sure it is the best policy to achieve our objectives before we proceed down the ETS path. I doubt we can ever trade, internationally, a commodity (carbon emissions) that is unmeasureable. It is unmeasureable at all levels: the individual, the business and the country. This will mean there will be massive cheating and fraud at all levels. The bureaucracy, police forces etc neecessary to adminisdter and police it will be a great cost to society. I believe the ETS is unworkable and will be an inmittigated disaster.

I do agree with implementing any workable means to internalise the external costs of energy consumption.

I hope others will discuss David Wise’s excellent article.

David. I did not answer some of your previous comments very well. I intend to return to them.

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Peter, that is fantastic. If the paper that results incorporated your earlier pieces as both the limit positions, and the current one as the approach to the limits, then that would be a landmark publication.

Well done on your decision to publish.

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Peter,

I would strongly encourage you to submit to the journal Energy Policy. Particularly as the current NSW Renewable Energy Precincts (ghetto’s is a better word for precinct) target is 45,000GWh by 2020.

See -> http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/climatechange/windprecincts.htm

Note NSW gov have called the web page “wind precincts” as is the email addy, which gives you an idea of what “renewable” means i.e. wind.

Now correct me if my figures are off here, but based on an annual figure of 4000MWh (capacity factor of 22.8% from current Life Cycle Analysis papers) for a 2MW turbine. In terms of the number of 2MW turbines in NSW that will mean :

45,000,000MWh / 4000MWh = 11,250 turbines.

Now have a look at the map ->

which of course omits :

ACT (funny that…)
&
Sydney region all the way west to just past Katoomba and all of the coast from a little north of Ulladulla all the way up to Tweed Heads (the coast is the best area of wind resource in NSW)

Yep, thats right, who is going to suffer the worst consequences, the rural minority and the ecosystems/wildlife of NSW.

*** Oh and of course anyone in NSW who pays an electricity bill & taxes because this will cost them a fortune! ***

How many nuclear power stations would you estimate could cover that?

I would like to remind everyone reading that those 11,250 wind turbines will absolutely require at least a 90% gas fired power station installation as backup. Has the NSW government read what the Australian Energy Regulator (AER) say’s in the State of the Energy Market
Report 2009, p65 ??

“wind capacity depends on the weather and cannot be relied on to generate at specified times.”

The issues such as intermittency/variability/non-reliability of wind, use of gas for back up, and start up times for coal are clearly stated extensively throughout the AER’s State of the Energy Market Report 2009 as shown by the following short selection of brief quotes :

Page 38 :

“Gas is likely to play an important role under climate change policies in
complementing intermittent renewable electricity generation. Wind generation — the likely primary renewable technology to 2020 — has intermittent output and must be backed up by other generation. Open cycle gas plants can respond quickly when there is insufficient wind generation, but any new plant is likely to operate at relatively low capacity factors. There will also be an increased need for gas transmission and storage to provide gas at short notice.”

Page 50 :

“The fuels that can be used to generate electricity each have distinct
characteristics. Coal fired generation, for example, has a long start up time (8 – 48 hours), while hydroelectric generation can start almost instantly.”

Page 55 :

“The extent of new and proposed investment in intermittent generation
(mainly wind) has raised concerns about system security and reliability.”

Page 102:

“The three largest private energy retailers — Origin Energy, AGL Energy and TRUenergy — are moving towards portfolios more balanced between generation and retail assets. In 2007 AGL Energy acquired the 1260 MW Torrens Island power station in South Australia from TRUenergy, in exchange for the Hallett power station (150 MW) and a cash sum. Origin Energy is quickly expanding its generation portfolio, commissioning the Uranquinty power station (650 MW) and expanding its Quarantine plant (130 MW) in 2008 – 09. It has also committed to a further 1250 MW of gas fired generation in Queensland and Victoria. All three businesses also have ownership interests in Australian wind farms.”

I recommend everyone have a good read of the SEM 2009 report :

http://www.aer.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/732297

Its a free to download PDF, and a real eye opening and educational exercise.

Given that it is becoming more and more apparent that wind may end up contributing to increasing GHG emissions through the thrashing of these gas power stations, what would be the estimated increase in emissions should such large scale wind energy ghettos get built?

The wind/gas alliance are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of the market price cap being raised further this year to $12,500/MWh & a green light from government planning. So when their “noise generators” (wind farms) are installed, ensuring even more & higher spot price peaks in the market, what can we expect as our % electricity bill increase from this situation?

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Martin Nicholson, on January 12th, 2010 at 14.15 — To follow up on the disconnect between wealth production and energy consumption, note from
http://old.swivel.com/data_columns/spreadsheet/3987533
that Tennessee is second ranked in electricy per capita at about 27.8 units, but from the earlier link, is ranked 37 in GDP per capita, while California is dead last (51st) in electricity per capita at about 7.0 units but is ranked 11 in GDP per capita.

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David Wise

I did not complete my answer to one of the questions in your post of January 10th, 2010 at 1.14.

You said:

You use ACIL-Tasman (2009) to arrive at projected nuclear build cost of A$ 5207. In your post 41555, you cite a Korean contract price of US$ 3800 and go on to speculate that it might be possible to conceive of the possibility of getting costs down to US$ 2000. Is there a simple, approximate way to translate capital costs into likely electricity costs?

The last sentence of my answer said:

So now we have a competitive bid for FOAK build of four 1350 MW power stations using AP1400 reactors. The comparison is UAE = A$4115 and Australia (projected) A$5207. Both are FOAK

I want to say more here. The the capital cost of the first NPP in Australia should be less than A$4115 for the same design as being built in UAE.by Korean contractors if all other factors are equal. The reasons it should be lower cost in Australia than in UAE are:

For UAE all the designs and documentation must be translated from Korean to English and then to Arabic, whereas in Australia the conversion is to English
Australia has a higher proportion of it workforce educated to the level neded to construct and manage the NPP
Australia has higher standards of safety accepted by and ingrained in the workforce

The capital cost of the succeding NPP’s can be expected to decrease. As you pointed out ACIL-Tasman projects a roughly 18% reduction in the first four years following the completion of the first NPP. Would a 30% reduction in 10 years be realistic? If so, capital cost would be down to around $2881; i.e.capital cost for nuclear at about 33% above the ACIL Tasman projected A$2201 for Ultra Super Critical Black Coal (air cololed) in 2028-29. The operating costs of nuclear are much less than coal, so is nuclear competitive with coal at this capital cost? More below.

You said:

You have also been suggesting that build costs for nuclear are excessively high in part due to a culture in the West of excessive/redundant safety. You have gone so far as to mention safety expenditure was one or more orders of magnitude too high. In your opinion, how much could be saved by opting for extremely safe rather than ridiculously safe?

I answered:

Without researching it, here is my guesstimate:
Nuclear is currently (Gen II history) some 10 to 100 times safer than coal. I expect we could have nuclear at 9 to 90 times safer than coal for around 50% reduction in cost. We could build them on the coast (lower cooling costs), near the demand centres (less transmission costs, lower costs for workforce, lower costs for construction, operation and maintenance throughout the plan life), we could accept the investment risks that are best owned by the public (such as public mischief, legal interventions and delays during construction, and sovereign risk), etc.

I also need to point out that I don’t believe what I am advocating will result in a reduction in safety. Gen III’a are much safer than the Gen II’s which are already some 10 to 100 times safer than nuclear (see the second figure here: https://bravenewclimate.com/2009/08/13/wind-and-carbon-emissions-peter-lang-responds/ ). So I expect safety will continue to improve, just as it does in the aircraft industry. We are not talking about a reduction in safety. We are are talking about a massive reduction in regulation, reporting, bureaucracy, administration – resulting in a reduction in cost. And remember that implementing nuclear in Australia would see an improvement in safety, health and environmental outcomes of around 10 to 100 times compared with coal. Those arguing that we should not proceed with nuclear for safety reasons are saying they would prefer to stick with coal which is much less safe. The argument is nonsense in my opinion.

You said:

If you don’t think that nuclear can compete with coal on the current unlevel playing field or even were coal’s non CO2 emissions costs to be internalised, what level of carbon tax would be necessary to make nuclear competitive (using a range of nuclear build cost assumptions)?

I replied:

Off the top of my head, A$20 to $40/tonne CO2. But I do not believe a Carbon tax or ETS is the preferred way to proceed. I believe it would be better to address the unlevel playing field

However, it doesn’t matter what price we put on carbon, there will be no nuclear in Australia unless it has bipartisan support in the Federal and all state parliaments and general support from the public. Without this, it will be impossible to implement it. So the question as to what carbon price will make nuclear competitive with coal is cannot be answered. It depends on the public and political support and even with that it will depend to a great extent on the regulatorey regime imposed. The capital cost figures quoted above are based on USA and EU type regulatory regimes. If we can avoid adopting them, we can have far lower costs.

I have one more question to respond to. You asked: “Is there a simple, approximate way to translate capital costs into likely electricity costs?” I’ll get back to you.

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Martin Nicholson, on January 13th, 2010 at 11.38 — I not an economist, so can only guess. But maybe because they are already richer than Midas and would rather have more play time?

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Peter @ 14.15 on 12/1 the diagrams on the pdf show about 275 Twh/a of electrical generation in 2010 and about 550 twh/a in 2050. I divide those by 8.76 to get continuous equivalent gigawatts of about 31 in 2010 and 63 Gw in 2050. That is generation growth of 0.8 Gw per year in arithmetic sequence. A hell of a lot is going to happen by 2050
-some of us will be dead
– crude oil production will be negligible
– transport will be electrified and synfuelled
– remaining gas and coal will be at world prices, heavily carbon taxed
– desalination and airconditioning will be needed to survive
– world population could be 30% higher
Therefore it’s hard to even feel certain that growth can still physically happen for all that period. The 4% growth expectation is default target neoclassical economists use to ensure full employment. Counter to that you have steady state theorists like Herman Daly who say 0% economic growth is inevitable. However I don’t have a compelling rebuttal to the assumptions in the pdf, just hunches. I think others would also agree that we should assume coal and gas fuel costs must rise quite strongly 2010-2050. The reasons are a combination of depletion, booming overseas demand and carbon taxes panic driven up by rapid climate change. Whether that and the other factors are growth killers I can’t say.

BTW I completely agree that offsets are a copout and a recipe for fraud. I suggest severely curtailing their use in the ETS, which I suspect will be even more watered down by mid year.

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Joh Newlands,

First, I don’t know where you get your 4% GDP growtht for Australia from. I’ve never seen anything like that (except for short periods). I am looking at the Treasury and ABARE forecasts. Can you point to where they are saying that 4% GDP growth is their central assumption for Australia?

Secondly, regarding coal and gas price rpojection, I suggest you look at ACIL-Tasman to understand what they have done as a foirst step. You can also look at MIT, EPRI and others. I am not persuaded there is any value in making changes to the inputs unless I have a complete set of projections that have been prepared on a consistent basis for all the technologies and applied to Australia. The costs are real costs (i.e. constant dollars). The expectation is that gas prices will rise but coal prices will continue to fall.

Thirdly, I’d suggest no ETS yet. Not until the main players have decided, and legislated, what they are going to do.

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What economists seem to think on the growth vs unemployment tradeoff is linked here
http://ideas.repec.org/p/oxf/wpaper/062.html
That is Treasury types want 4% annual increase in inflation adjusted GDP but they are pleased to get 1-3% because of all the inhibiting factors.

On black coal firstly I suggest that exports will determine the long term price since from memory domestic consumption is about 90 Mtpa while exports are around 260 Mt. I think the spot price for thermal coal ex Newcastle is about $80/t. This is a stretch but I think it was more like $40/t circa 2000. China’s imports increased 12 fold from 2008-2009 and Melbourne’s NIEIR believes China will run short of coal by 2015. Their annual consumption is around 2.5 Gt. Several independent reseachers ( Energy Watch Group, Aleklett, Rutledge) predict a global coal production peak around 2030.

Brown and poor quality black coal in Latrobe Valley, Leigh Ck and Collie (70 Mtpa combined ?) is probably more stable in price since the power stations are minemouth or have inhouse supply and no exports. I believe the price of black coal to Australian power stations could conceivably double within a decade through Chinese demand alone. I assume that neither Australia nor China has any serious intention of reducing emissions. On the one hand you have ACIL Tasman saying stable coal prices and on the other you have NIEIR suggesting unstable.

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John,

I’d suggest you understand what ACIL-Tasman is projecting. They are conmtracted by AEMO to do the work, and also by DCC for much of the work on energy and CO2 emisisons projections. I’d trust them over what you are quoting. You should get an understanding of waht they’ve done as a first step. By the way, they ABARE have been doing this work for Australia for 20+ years.

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John,

I’d just repeat, I am not willing to play arounfd with the numbers without a complete set of replacement figures, prepared on a consistent basis. Do you have such?

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John Newlands,

Your argument about increasing fuel costs further supports a point I’ve been making on this and previous threads. If we allow a level playing field, with consistent regulations for all generators, then the investors will make their decisions based on their assessments of future costs. However, while some options are excluded (nuclear) and others are mandated and heavily subsidised (wind and solar), it is impossible to have the least cost option. This reinforces my belief that we should allow nuclear to be an option and we should stop mandating and subsidising renewable energy production. Furthermore, we should have a level playing field for all the electricity generation technologies.

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Douglas Wise,

You asked:

If you don’t think that nuclear can compete with coal on the current unlevel playing field or even were coal’s non CO2 emissions costs to be internalised, what level of carbon tax would be necessary to make nuclear competitive (using a range of nuclear build cost assumptions)?

EPRI (2009) Page 10-21 (section 10 slide 21) http://my.epri.com/portal/server.pt?space=CommunityPage&cached=true&parentname=ObjMgr&parentid=2&control=SetCommunity&CommunityID=405 shows that nuclear at US$84/MWh is competitive with Pulverised Coal with a carbon cost of US$22/tonne CO2. For this analysis they used a capital cost of US4860/kW in 2015 (see page 6-6 for the input assumptions. For pulverised coal, the capital cost assumed is US$2650 (in 2010), and LCOE is US$66/MWh>

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John Newlands,

I accept that coal prices for export coal will increase and the price of coal for power stations may also. However, the best figures I have are the ACIL-Tasman figures. I don’t know if you have looked but they have done the projections for each power stations and summarised by region. These are detailed bottom up figures. They would be well aware of NIEIR and other work on this and would take it into consideration along with all the other information available. ACIL-Tasman was selected to do this modelling exercise by AEMO supposedly because they were considered to be the most competent to do the work. I agree there are probably hundreds of researchers at different levels all with different approaches, assumptions, input data, perspectives and agendas. ACIL-Tasman is the best information available for the purpose.

If the price of coal does rise, it makes nuclear more competitive.

We can all speculate on international tensions. However, improving energy security and reducing the cost of energy for all peoples on the planet should be a major assistance to reducing such tensions.

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Is California really a good example of energy efficiency, or is the California economy rapidly falling apart? Considering the recent collapse of the California housing market, and the state government’s financial problems, falling apart is not that improbable.

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Peter Lang

Thank you for your further replies. I am delighted that you and Barry are planning to publish in a refereed journal.

Thought experiment: Suppose nuclear power were to have all political, bureaucratic and legal obstacles removed globally and be ready for roll out from 2015 (Gen IV from 2030) and suppose that it were to produce power at a price that could only be matched by coal. What would be the answers to the following questions?
1) Would enlightened self interest alone be sufficient to ensure that the technology was adopted fast enough to produce the needed emissions reductions (say 80% by 2050)?
2) If not, what is the best form of coercion needed to ensure such emissions reductions and what is the likelihood of such coercion having the required effect globally?
3) If carbon free energy were no longer limiting by 2050, would population growth continue beyond its projected level of 10 billion and, if so, would anyone consider this desirable?
4) Should population start falling from 2050, what economic model can best be adopted to manage the decline with its associated diminishing workforces and ageing populations?
5) Classical economic theory apparently requires continuing economic growth for capitalism to survive in a democratic society. Is it possible for economic growth to continue sustainably in a world with a declining population but plenty of energy and the potential to recycle?
6) Is it not the current case that economic growth demands that purchasers buy goods that they neither need nor particularly want?

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Charles Barton, on January 14th, 2010 at 1.26 — The statistics I used are from several years ago. California is experiencing on of its (many) downs just now, but they are doing so with energy efficiency already in place.

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Douglas Wise,

Thought experiment: Suppose nuclear power were to have all political, bureaucratic and legal obstacles removed globally and be ready for roll out from 2015 (Gen IV from 2030) and suppose that it were to produce power at a price that could only be matched by coal. What would be the answers to the following questions?

I like yout thought experiment. I’ll play, but this initial response will be from opinions ‘off the top of my head’.

1) Would enlightened self interest alone be sufficient to ensure that the technology was adopted fast enough to produce the needed emissions reductions (say 80% by 2050)?

No. It must be least cost to achieve that. I believe nuclear would be the least cost option by far there was a genuine level playing field for all electricity generation technologies. That is the issue we need to address. If coal was being introduced after nuclear had been around for a while, who would accept coal generators in their back yard, or for that matter, in their country, or on their planet? I’d suggest the next “thought experiment” you propose should be challenge the BNC contributors to take a clean sheet of paper and consider what would be a genuine level playing field for electricity generators.

2) If not, what is the best form of coercion needed to ensure such emissions reductions and what is the likelihood of such coercion having the required effect globally?

a) The word ‘globally is the real sticking point. There are stacks of possibilites but I really don’t believe any are workable. (for example, we could have trade barriers for those who do not have acceptable carbon intensities ($/GDP), etc. Australia would be one of the most heavily penalised. We could have an international ETS, based on consumpton not production, and managed by WTO as part of the intenrational trade agreements. There is zero chance of getting anything like that established in the forseeable future). And I wonder, aren’t we simply going aboit this the wrong way. Why not just get a level playing field. The problem goes away. Anything that tries to solve the problem you are asking about while continuing to maintain a ten to 1 disparity in safety between nuclear and coal and mandates and subsidises rediculous generation technologies like solar and wind, is just nonsense.

b) Within a country, internalise the externalities to the extent possible. This may be done partly by regulation and partly by taxes or emissions trading schemes. Regulations can be on polution, land area disturbed, royalties for fossil fules extracted, increased costs for remedial action. These should be collected from electrcity revenue just as the cost of decommissiong and used fule management is collected by governemts to pay for these at the end of a nuclear power stations life.

3) If carbon free energy were no longer limiting by 2050, would population growth continue beyond its projected level of 10 billion and, if so, would anyone consider this desirable?

No. Low cost energy will reduce not increase population growth. As peoples emergy from poverty the population growth rate decreases. If we want to reduce the woelds peak polulation the best thing we can do is get low cost clean energy to the poorest people on the planet as fast as possible.

4) Should population start falling from 2050, what economic model can best be adopted to manage the decline with its associated diminishing workforces and ageing populations?

Outside my area of expertise. Long way off. Perhaps we can get a piano in every house and family and friends gather and enjoy the interation instead of having to go to work for our interaction with people. People were pretty happy doing that before we got so involved with going shopping to buy ‘embodied emissions’ and ‘land fill’.

5) Classical economic theory apparently requires continuing economic growth for capitalism to survive in a democratic society. Is it possible for economic growth to continue sustainably in a world with a declining population but plenty of energy and the potential to recycle?

Yes

6) Is it not the current case that economic growth demands that purchasers buy goods that they neither need nor particularly want?

Not sure. Some froiends argue that we can move to a more service based economy instead of a products based economy. He once jokingly and exaggeratedly said something to the effect that he can foresee a time where we sit in a tub of amniotic fluid with sensors attached that make us feel permanently happy.

Douglas. Good thought provoking “Thought experiment”. Apologies for frivolity. I hope I am not the only one to make a fool of myself here 

Hope you will take up my suggestion for your next “thought experiment”. What would be a genuine level playing field for electricity generators.

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Peter Lang, on January 14th, 2010 at 11.44 wrote “what would be a genuine level playing field for electricity generators”?

Easy in principle: internalize all externalities, via royalties, taxes and even regulations. Impossible in practice: nobody knows all the externalities and of those known, how to price them. For example, what is the “true cost” of emitting a tonne of CO2?

For some emissions such as sulfates and NOx, it seems the US EPA attempts to set some sort of maximum allowable emissions from point sources. [I don’t know the details.] So possibly the same approach could be taken for carbon dioxide emissions?

If so, then the closed carbon cycle of algae farm + CCGT becomes quite attractive, since there would be no CO2 emissions at all! [Of course, this still needs to be demonstrated as cost effective, but with some sort of constraint on, or heavy price for, CO2 emissions it surely is.]

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Further dabbling with coal tonnages leads me to conclude that since Rudd has been PM Australian coal has contributed around 2 billion tonnes of CO2 to the atmosphere. A conservative derivation is
2.4 tCO2/t coal X 2 years X (65 br + 85 bl + 250 ex) = 1920 Mt

Quite remarkable given his election promise to take decisive action on climate change.

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What would be a genuine level playing field for electricity generators”?

Here are a few preliminary thoughts:

1. Remove all mandatory requirements ( eg the Mandatory Renewable Energy Targets)

2. Remove all subsidies from production (subsidies fro RD&D are good)

3. Remove all favourable tax incentives and other hidden incentives.

4. Ensure that regulations applying to a generator are the same for all types of generators. Set up a system to allow generators to challenge anything that is impeding a level playing field.

5. Emissions and polution regulations must be the same for all industries and should be based on safety and healthe effects on an equal basis.

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Peter Lang, on January 14th, 2010 at 13.02 — Good! I would add

Clean Up Your Mess.

Not only at the end of useful generator life but also for whatever mineral extraction is employed, at any stage.

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John B. Benson,

I agree with your additions.

I also want to clarify for those who think I am arguing to “level down” safety (e.g. Ewen Laver from our discussion on an earlier thread), the IAEA regulations must apply to all nuclear facilities in all countries (the regulations apply to all industries using ionising radiaton including medical, food, industrial and research. Australia complies with internationally accepted regulations and accepted practices for the gas industry, for dam design, construction and maintenance, and for most other industrial activities. We must do the same for nuclear energy. But that does not mean we need to have our own enormous bureaucracy (like the US Nuclear Rejection Commission) who’s existance, some believe, depends on making things as difficult as possible for the nuclear power industry. We can be lean, follow the IAEA’s guidelines and requirements (just as other small countries do) and have nuclear energy at far lower cost than the US and EU precedents. If we don’t do this, we can always stick with coal! The choice is that simple.

These three options may help to clarify my point:

1. New Coal generation ($50/MWh with 1x deaths/MWh)

2. Nuclear ($100/MWh with 0.1x to 0.01x deaths/MWh)

3. Nuclear ($50/MWh with 0.5x to 0.05x deaths/MWh)

Figures are fictious for illustration purposes only.

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In terms of “regulation” the wind industry is currently at what I would call “the wild west frontier stage”. See the recent NSW Inquiry Report :

“The Committee has noted that guidelines for wind farm developments are currently being prepared at
the Federal and State level. The Draft National Wind Farm Development Guidelines intend to provide a nationally consistent set of methods for addressing wind farm concerns, however, the Committee
notes that they will only be effective if states such as NSW choose to require wind farm developers and
operators to comply with them. The guidelines also state that ‘other government policy’ should be
followed as required. This presents as an issue for NSW as there is currently lack of ‘other government
policy’. The Committee believes that the development of NSW Planning and Assessment Guidelines
for Wind Farms presents an opportunity to vastly improve current policy, however, if the guidelines do
not address issues such as DCPs being ignored in assessment of Part 3A development applications, the
perception that the Department of Planning disregards local concerns may remain.”

That is a very short extract regarding planning reg’s and legislation, more of which is contained in the inquiry report. Notice the use of the words “Draft” & “Guidelines”, and most developers take the word “guidelines” to mean non-legally binding wishes that can and are completely ignored.

I find it interesting that two different technologies have completely opposite amounts of regulation : wind has pretty much none and is demonstrably NOT environmentally benign. Nuclear on the other hand seems to be wrapped up tighter than a baby in cling film.

Is it me or this a double standard?

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Re Peter Lang. Level playing field for electricity generators. Jan 14th.

I am more or less in agreement. Your point 1 – the removal of mandatory requirements is sensible. I suppose an alternative – and possibly one that might be more politically achieveable – would be to make nuclear an “honorary” renewable.

In an ideal world, I wouldn’t quibble with any of your other points nor that added by David Benson. However, I have certain misgivings:

1) the French have the cheapest electricity in Europe but, possibly in consequence, they use more of it. The Americans have cheaper motor fuel and, possibly in consequence, their vehicles have poorer fuel economy. I am therefore doubtful that a totally market driven approach to energy will bring down emissions fast enough.

2) There remains the problem that any nation or group of nations that takes strong action to reduce emissions is likely to put its own manufacturers at a competitive disadvantage and end up exporting emissions and importing manufactured goods from elsewhere. This brings me back to the need for coercion in the form of import tariffs.

I totally agree that, as soon as nuclear electricity becomes cheaper than coal electricity, everything will become simpler but this will take time. In the meantime, we will need to explore improvements in energy efficiency and these are most likely to be driven by increased energy prices.

3) I am not sure that nuclear power will be rolled out quickly enough if private NPP manufacturers are left to their own devices. It would seem that we may need “a war footing” approach which will require governments to play very active roles in the process, not only in providing the level playing field you want, but in encouraging funding by private investors. You might argue that this would involve “picking winners” rather that letting them emerge. However, with the odds heavily stacked on the chosen technology working, our dire situation may justify such an approach. I am attracted to the idea of making it attractive for pension funds, which are looking for long term rather than short term returns, to invest in nuclear power. I would also consider it might be an interesting idea to offer those on very high incomes the choice between paying more tax or investing, tax free, in nuclear power (sort of like punishing bankers by taxing them or allowing them to have huge bonuses so long as they are deferred).

You will, no doubt, gather that I have neither technical expertise on the subject that I’m corresponding about nor, necessarily, a great grasp of economics. However, others might like to shred my ideas which are presented only as debating points.

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