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Emissions Nuclear Renewables

Emission cuts realities for electricity generation – costs and CO2 emissions

We must cut our carbon emissions immediately!“… “We have to transition rapidly to 100% renewable energy!“… “A massive nuclear build out is the only logical course of action!“… and so on. We get these well-meant but hand-waving arguments all the time, almost always bereft of real-world numbers — especially those with $$ attached. This greatly limits their utility and credibility. Without a practical, pragmatic plan, we aren’t going to get anywhere and the people in control of the purse strings will not pay them serious attention.

That’s why I’m so happy to present this new, clear-headed analysis by Peter Lang on BraveNewClimate (which was spawned by in the discussion threads of previous posts on wind and solar power — their costs and ability to mitigate carbon emissions). Using Australia as a case study (although the same principles would apply in almost any developed economy that is currently reliant on fossil fuel energy), Peter considers six electricity supply scenarios for the period 2010 to 2050 — a high-carbon business-as-usual projection as a reference, and five low(er) carbon alternatives. In each of the alternatives, coal-fired power stations are retired, and not replaced, such that by the period 2035 — 2040, the last few are closed.

These analysis are simple, clearly presented and easily understood. Yet they’re also realistic in the same way that David Mackay’s energy plans are realistic — they add up (although Mackay was concerned about whether the physics are right, Lang is concerned about whether the $$ and build rates are plausible). They are an apples and apples set of plans, in the sense that they represent reasonable relative comparisons which all aim to achieve the same goal, in different ways. Like any modelling exercise, the uncertainties lie in the quality of the input data and the acceptability of the assumptions made. Peter makes them quite explicit. If you wish to disagree and propose/source your own numbers, fine, but remember that the onus is then on you to justify your assumptions.

I’ll stop and this point and let you read the analysis. Get yourself a large mug of coffee or a tall glass of wine, and settle in for an interesting read. After that, let the comments fly. I certainly have my own points to make about where I think the analysis is most/least plausible, but that can come a little later…

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Emission Cuts Realities – Electricity Generation

Cost and CO2 emissions projections for different electricity generation options for Australia to 2050

By Peter Lang, January 2010

(Download the printable 32-page PDF version here, which also includes references and Appendices).

Peter Lang is a retired geologist and engineer with 40 years experience on a wide range of energy projects throughout the world, including managing energy R&D and providing policy advice for government and opposition. His experience includes: coal, oil, gas, hydro, geothermal, nuclear power plants, nuclear waste disposal, and a wide range of energy end use management projects.

Abstract

Five options for cutting CO2 emissions from electricity generation in Australia are compared with a ‘Business as Usual’ option over the period 2010 to 2050. The six options comprise combinations of coal, gas, nuclear, wind and solar thermal technologies.

The conclusions: The nuclear option reduces CO2 emissions the most, is the only option that can be built quickly enough to make the deep emissions cuts required, and is the least cost of the options that can cut emissions sustainably. Solar thermal and wind power are the highest cost of the options considered. The cost of avoiding emissions is lowest with nuclear and highest with solar and wind power.

Introduction

This paper presents a simple analysis of CO2 emissions, capital expenditure, electricity generation costs and the emissions avoidance cost for six options for supplying Australia’s electricity. The results are presented at five year intervals for the period 2010 to 2050.

The purpose of this paper is to address two questions that were raised in discussion of three earlier papers (Lang 2009a, Lang 2009b, Lang 2009c). The papers ‘Solar Power Realities’ (Lang 2009b), and the Addendum (2009c), looked at the cost of reducing CO2 emissions using solar power. They did this by looking at the limit situation; that is, we replace all our fossil fuel electricity generation ‘overnight’ with either solar power and energy storage or with nuclear power. The papers concluded that solar power would cost at least 40 times more than nuclear to supply the National Electricity Market (NEM). The estimates were based on current prices for currently available technologies and for the NEM demand in 2007.

The first paper, “Cost and Quantity of Greenhouse Gas Emissions Avoided by Wind Generation” (Lang 2009a), concluded that wind power with back-up by gas generators saves little greenhouse gas emissions and the avoidance cost is high compared with other alternatives.

Discussion of these analyses raised two main questions:

1. The limit situation does not take into account what happens during the transition period. The earliest we could begin commissioning nuclear is about 2020. So, what should we do until then? Does it make sense to build wind power as fast as possible until 2020, at least, so we can cut greenhouse gas emissions as quickly as possible and start as early as possible?

2. The previous papers consider replacement of fossil fuel generators with one technology only rather than with a mix of technologies. This raises the question: would a mix of technologies be better able to meet the demand and at lower cost. Would a mix of solar and wind be lower cost than either alone, and lower cost than nuclear?

To attempt to answer these questions, in a ‘ball park’ way, I conducted a simple analysis of the cost, and CO2 emissions from six options (six technology mixes) for the period 2010 to 2050. The six options are:

1. Business as Usual (BAU).

2. Combined Cycle Gas Turbine (CCGT).

3. Nuclear and CCGT.

4. Wind and Gas [Gas means a mix of Open Cycle Gas Turbine (OCGT) and Combined Cycle Gas Turbine (CCGT)].

5. Solar Thermal and CCGT

6. Solar Thermal, Wind and Gas.

Throughout the paper ‘emissions’ refers to ‘CO2-e emissions’. More specifically, it refers to CO2-e emissions from electricity sent out from the power station. The figures are not life cycle emissions (see assumption 10, below).

Assumptions

Assumptions that apply to all options are described in this section. Assumptions that are specific to an option or to a technology are described under the relevant option in the Methodology section.

1. The total energy supplied is as per the ABARE (2007) projections of electricity supply to 2030, extended linearly to 2050. All options must supply this total energy for each period and all must provide the same quality of power as the Business as Usual case. To achieve this, intermittent renewable energy generators must be backed up by a responsive generator technology.

2. For all except the Business as Usual case, it is assumed that coal fired power stations can be and will be decommissioned at the rate of 1 GW per year for black coal generators and 0.4 GW per year for brown coal generators.

3. The energy deficit caused by decommissioning the coal fired power stations is supplied by replacement generating capacity. Five options for replacement generating capacity are considered. Each option comprises a mix of a few technologies that in combination are capable, theoretically, of providing the energy and the power that would have been provided by the coal power stations. That is, the mixes of replacement technologies must be capable of providing the same power quality, and of supplying it on demand, at all times.

4. The ABARE (2007) projections provide the breakdown of energy supply by nine generation types; four fossil fuel and five renewable energy. The energy supplied by the seven non-coal technologies is the same in all six options [There is one exception to this statement – see Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT]. The Business as Usual case is as per the ABARE (2007) projections for all nine technologies.

5. The main constraint in the analyses is the assumed decommissioning rate for coal fired power stations and the assumed build rate achievable for the replacement technologies. The build rate assumptions are arguably optimistic. The achievability of the assumed build rates is discussed in a later section.

6. The capital expenditures do not include the cost of replacement of the reserve capacity margin that is needed to cover for scheduled and unscheduled outages because the reserve capacity margin is assumed to be the same for all options.

7. The analyses are intentionally simple so that non-specialists can follow the assumptions and analyses. A more thorough analysis would use sophisticated modelling to optimise the mix of technologies and to calculate the long run marginal cost of electricity sent out. All available technologies would be included in the analyses rather then the simple mixes used in these analyses. Such analyses are complicated and need sophisticated modelling capability. For examples see EPRI (2009a), MIT (2007), MIT (2009), ACIL-Tasman (2009), Frontier Economics (2009), ATSE (2008).

8. Transmission costs are similar for the Business as Usual, CCGT and Nuclear options. So no additional cost is included for transmission for the CCGT and Nuclear options. Extra costs for transmission are included for the Wind and Solar Thermal options.

9. No allowance is made for the lower energy growth rate that energy efficiency improvements will bring. This omission is offset because no allowance is made for the higher growth rate as cleaner electricity replaces gas for heating and replaces oil for land transport (either in electric vehicles or through synthetic fuels such as methanol or hydrogen that use electricity for their production).

10. CO2 emissions from nuclear and the renewable energy technologies are assumed to be zero in operation, consistent with DCC (2009), EPRI (2009b) and Frontier (2009). On a Life Cycle Analysis (LCA) basis the emissions from these technologies are small compared with fossil fuel generation. These are ignored in this simple analysis. [Lightbucket (2009) lists the results from authoritative studies of LCA emissions from electricity generation].

11. No attempt has been made to reconcile CO2 emissions calculated for the Business as Usual option with the emissions projections published by the Department of Climate Change (2009).

12. The ABARE (2007) energy projections are for all Australia’s electricity supply, both off-grid and on-grid. However, the analyses here apply the ABARE (2007) figures as if they were for grid connected electricity. This simplification means the potential for emissions reductions and the cost of the options is overstated (perhaps by 10% in early years decreasing over time).

Table 1 lists the CO2-e emissions intensities for sent out electricity in 2010 for the Business as Usual technologies.

Table 2 summarises the assumptions and inputs for the coal and replacement technologies.

Methodology

This section explains how the analyses were done.

Option 1 – Business as Usual (BAU)

The ABARE (2007) projections for electricity supply for the years 2005-06 to 2029-30 were extended to 2050 and converted from petajoules (PJ) to terawatt-hours (TWh). Figure 1 shows the energy projections for the Business as Usual option.

The CO2 emissions were calculated for the Business as Usual case by multiplying the energy by the CO2 emissions factors. The assumed emissions factors for 2010 are listed in Table 1. Emissions factors for the periods after 2010 were reduced at the rate of 1% per 5 years to account for average efficiency improvements for the existing generators and new generators. The renewable and nuclear technologies are assumed to produce zero emissions (Table 1).

To compare the cost difference between the options we need only compare the cost of the coal with the replacement technologies. All the other technologies are the same for all options.

The capital expenditure for coal in the Business as Usual case comprises two components:

a) the capital expenditure of new coal capacity added to meet the rising demand for electricity; and

b) the capital expenditure of new coal to replace old coal that has reached the end of its economic life. To work with capital expenditure, we must convert the energy figures in the ABARE projections to average power.

The energy (TWh) was converted to average power (GW) using a capacity factor of 90% (refer Table 2). As mentioned previously, this simple analysis ignores the reserve capacity margin needed in the generation system.

The amount of new coal capacity required each year for the Business as Usual case was calculated from the ABARE (2007) projections. The amount of new coal to replace existing coal at the end of its economic life was calculated as 2% of existing capacity per year [Assuming a 40 year economic life, the plants would be replaced at the rate of 2.5% per year if the capacity was constant from year to year. However, the capacity is increasing over time. In any one year we need to replace only the plants that are 40 years old. If the capacity doubles in 40 years, then we need to replace 1.25% of the total existing capacity in each year. I have assumed 2% as a round figure in between 1.25% and 2.5%.].

The capital cost of new coal capacity for the Business as Usual option was calculated by multiplying the amount of new coal capacity by the unit rate for Ultra Super Critical Black Coal (air cooled) and Ultra Super Critical Brown Coal (air cooled) (refer Table 35, ACIL-Tasman 2009).

All non-BAU options

For all options other than Business as Usual, black coal capacity is decommissioned at the rate of 1 GW per year, and brown coal at the rate of 0.4 GW per year. Decommissioning starts in 2010. All black coal is decommissioned by 2040 and all brown coal by 2035.

The amount of energy these power stations would have generated if not decommissioned is calculated. This is the energy deficit that must be supplied by the replacement generators in all the non Business as Usual options.

The CO2 emissions from the remaining coal capacity are calculated by multiplying the energy generated from black coal and brown coal by the emissions factor for that technology for that year.

The Business as Usual Option comprises projections for nine technologies, – Black Coal, Brown Coal and seven others. The emissions from all the seven non-coal technologies are the same for all options.

The following sections describe the five options considered here for replacing the energy from the decommissioned coal power stations.

Option 2 – Combined Cycle Gas Turbine (CCGT)

CCGT is built to replace the energy deficit resulting from the decommissioning of the coal fired plants. The amount of CCGT capacity required is calculated by multiplying the energy deficit by 90% capacity factor. Figure 2 shows the energy supplied by each technology.

The CO2 emissions for CCGT are calculated using a CO2 emissions factor of 0.45 t CO2/MWh, decreasing at 1% per five year to reflect increasing generation efficiency.

The CO2 emissions from the remaining coal generators and from the other seven technologies are included in the total for this option.

The capital cost for this option is calculated using the unit rate for new build CCGT (air cooled) given in Table 35, ACIL Tasman (2009), and decreasing at -0.4% pa from 2030 to 2050.

Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT

For this option, nuclear power is commissioned at the rate of 1 GW per year from 2020 to 2025, then at 1.5 GW per year to 2030, then at 2 GW per year to 2050. The reason for selecting these rates is discussed below in “How achievable are the build rates”

CCGT is commissioned at the rate needed to make up the difference between the energy that the nuclear power can supply and the energy deficit caused by decommissioning the coal power stations. Figure 3 shows how much energy is produced by each technology.

From 2010 to 2019, no nuclear capacity is commissioned so the CCGT capacity is the same as in Option 2 – CCGT. From 2020 to 2025, nuclear is not built fast enough to replace the coal capacity being decommissioned, so CCGT is added to supply the energy deficit. After 2025, nuclear is being built faster than coal is being decommissioned. So, progressively less energy is being required from CCGT. This shows up (in this simple analysis) as a reduction in CCGT capacity. The practical interpretation of this is that the Natural Gas generation capacity would be reduced at this rate. This means that Natural Gas generation capacity would not be replaced at the end of its 30 year economic life. This begins from about 2025.

CO2 emissions for nuclear are assumed to be zero (see ‘Assumptions’ and Table 1). CO2 emissions for Coal, CCGT and the other technologies are calculated in the same way as for Option 2 – CCGT. As for capacity, the negative emissions shown against CCGT should actually be a reduction in emissions from ‘Natural Gas’ but for simplicity of calculation they are shown as negative for CCGT.

The capital cost calculations for this option are similar to those for Option 2 – CCGT. The cost of the nuclear capacity is at the unit rate in ACIL-Tasman (2009), Table 35, and decreasing at -0.9% pa from 2030 to 2035 then at -0.6% pa to 2050.

Option 4 – Wind and Gas

For this option, wind power capacity is commissioned at the same rate as the coal fired plants are decommissioned. So when all wind farms are producing full power (a rare event), the wind farms will supply all the energy that the decommissioned coal fired power plants would have supplied. When the wind farms are not producing full power, back-up generation is required to make up for the energy deficit.

Back-up capacity is provided by a combination of Combined Cycle Gas Turbines (CCGT) and Open Cycle Gas Turbines (OCGT). Equal proportions are assumed. A Capacity Credit of 8% is assumed (AER, 2009), so 1 GW of wind power capacity is assumed to be backed up by 0.46 GW of OCGT and 0.46 GW of CCGT [In practice more gas capacity will be built than this calculation indicates. OCGT and CCGT run at lower capacity factors in practice than the 90% used in this analysis for calculating the amount of capacity required]. The proportions, on the basis of capacity, are 1.0:0.46:0.46.

The energy is calculated assuming a capacity factor of 30% for Wind and availability of 90% for OCGT and CCGT. So, on average, 3 GWh of energy is supplied by a combination of Wind, OCGT and CCGT in the proportions 1:1:1. Figure 4 shows how much energy is produced by each technology.

CO2 emissions for wind generation are assumed to be zero (refer to ‘Assumptions’ and Table 1). The CO2 emissions for OCGT are calculated using a CO2 emissions intensity of 0.7 t CO2/MWh, decreasing at 1% per five years to reflect increasing generation efficiency. CO2 emissions for CCGT, Coal and the other technologies are calculated in the same way as for Option 2 – CCGT. The lower efficiency and higher emissions from the gas turbines when operating in back up mode (Lang, 2009a; Hawkins, 2009) are included in this analysis. The CO2 emissions are increased by 34% for OCGT and 17% for CCGT (Hawkins, 2009) when these technologies are operating in back-up mode. The higher emissions rate is applied to the proportion of the energy that is generated when they are assumed to be operating in ‘back-up’ mode. For simplicity this is assumed to be equal to the proportion of the replacement energy that is generated by Wind. In effect, the increased emissions factor is applied to half the energy generated by the CCGT and OCGT replacement generators.

The capital cost calculations for this option are similar to those for Option 2 – CCGT and Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT. The capital cost of the wind capacity is $2591/kW (Average of seven wind farms listed as ‘under construction’ in ABARE (2009). This Australian cost is close to the US cost in EPRI (2009b), Table 7.1, p 7-5, which is US$2350/kW = A$2611/kW) in 2010 and decreasing in future periods at -0.6% pa (Frontier, 2009). The cost of OCGT and CCGT capacity is at the unit rate in ACIL-Tasman (2009), Table 35, increasing at +0.4% pa and +0.5% pa from 2030 to 2050.

As mentioned above, the OCGT and CCGT generators are less efficient when operating in back up mode for wind. These analyses assume that the electricity generation costs are 17% higher for CCGT and 34% higher for OCGT (Hawkins, 2009). However, only half the energy generated by these technologies is considered to be in back-up mode, so electricity cost is increased by 8.5% for CCGT and 17% for OCGT when operating in back-up mode.

Wind power is assumed to have an economic life of 25 years and gas 30 years. Wind and gas capacity installed in 2010 must be replaced in 2035 and 2040 respectively. The capital costs of replacing wind and gas at the end of their economic lives are calculated at the capital cost rate applicable for the year in which the replacement is commissioned.

Wind power requires significant additional capital expenditure for transmission and network management capability. Based on estimated costs for extra transmission capacity incurred because of wind generation in the USA, $1,000/kW of installed wind capacity is included (Gene Preston, pers. comm., 3 Nov 2009). The transmission cost for wind power raises the cost of electricity by an assumed $15/MWh on average (Gene Preston, Dec 2009, pers. comm. and EPRI, 2009a).

Option 5 – Solar Thermal and CCGT

This option is similar to Option 3 – Nuclear & CCGT but with solar thermal instead of nuclear.

The differences are:

1. The build rate of solar thermal capacity in this option (Option 5) is half the build rate of nuclear in Option 3 – Nuclear & CCGT

2. Therefore, the build rate of CCGT is higher in this option than in the Nuclear & CCGT option (to make up the energy difference). This means emissions are higher in the Solar & CCGT option than in the Nuclear & CCGT option.

3. Solar thermal capacity has an assumed life expectancy of 25 years so replacement of solar thermal capacity begins 25 years after the first installation; so replacement begins in 2045.

4. Whereas nuclear would be built near population centres, where work force, infrastructure, suppliers and services are available, this is not the case for solar thermal [The NEEDS (2009) costs are based on constructing the Andasol 1 solar thermal power station in Spain. The cost of constructing widely distributed solar thermal power stations over an area of some 3000 km by 1000 km in Australia’s deserts will be higher than the cost of constructing in Spain – where there is well developed infrastructure and larger work force nearer to the sites. To construct the solar thermal power stations in areas throughout central Australia will require large mobile construction camps, fly-in fly-out work force, large concrete batch plants, large supply of water, energy and good roads to each power station. Air fields suitable for fly-in fly-out will be required at say one per 250 MW power station. That means we need to build such air fields at the rate of about two, then three, then four per year.]. Solar thermal needs to be built in areas of high insolation (deserts) and the power stations must be widely distributed to minimise the impacts of widespread cloud cover.

5. Transmission costs are included at the rate of $1,200/kW (derived from estimates in AEMO, 2009).

Solar thermal capacity is commissioned at the rate of 0.5 GW per year from 2020 to 2025, then at 0.75 GW per year to 2030, then at 1 GW per year to 2050. However, from 2040, some of the new build is for replacing existing old capacity. Solar thermal capacity is assumed to have the same capacity factor as nuclear, i.e. 90%. This is based on NEEDS (2008) which forecasts that solar thermal will have this capability by 2020 [There is an alternative to solar thermal with sufficient energy storage for 90% capacity factor. The alternative is solar thermal hybrid. Gas generates power when the sun isn’t shining and there is insufficient energy storage. The hybrid options emits much more CO2 than CST alone and the electricity costs are higher (EPRI, 2009a, page 10-20), although this comparison is made at a capacity factor of 34% not 90%. NEEDS argues that the solar thermal with 8000 full load hours energy storage will be available and electricity costs will be less than the hybrid option by 2020. The hybrid option is not included in the options considered here].

CCGT is commissioned at the rate needed to make up the difference between the energy that the solar thermal capacity can provide and the energy deficit caused by decommissioning the coal fired power stations.

From 2010 to 2019, negligible solar thermal is commissioned so CCGT is built at the same rate as in Option 2 – CCGT and Option 3 – Nuclear & CCGT. From 2020 to 2040 CCGT is being added because solar thermal is not being built fast enough to replace the coal capacity being decommissioned. By 2040 all coal capacity has been decommissioned. So, from 2040 less energy is being required from CCGT. This shows up, in this simple analysis, as reduction in CCGT capacity. The practical interpretation of the reduction of CCGT capacity is that the Natural Gas generation capacity would be reduced at this rate. What this means is that the Natural Gas generation would not be replaced at the end of its 30 year economic life. This begins from about 2040. Figure 5 shows how much energy is produced by each technology.

CO2 emissions for solar thermal are assumed to be zero (refer Table 1). CO2 emissions for coal, CCGT and the other technologies are calculated in the same way as for Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT. The negative emissions shown against CCGT should actually be a reduction in emissions from ‘Natural Gas’ but for simplicity they are shown as negative against CCGT.

The capital cost calculations for this option are similar to those for Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT, except that the capital cost of transmission is added and the capital cost of replacing retiring solar thermal capacity is included from 2045. The capital cost of the solar thermal capacity is based on adjusted unit rates from NEEDS (2008), Figure 3.11, Case B [The ‘learning rates’, and hence the costs, in the NEEDS report seem optimistic (see Appendix 2)]. The rates are adjusted to attempt to make them more consistent with the way the ACIL-Tasman (2009) rates were derived. Two adjustments were made. Firstly, the initial capital cost unit rate is adjusted up by 25% to allow for the greater cost of constructing widely distributed power stations across an area roughly 1000 km by 3000 km of Australia’s deserts. Secondly, the learning rate in NEEDS (2008) is replaced with the same rate of cost reduction as for nuclear in Option 3- Nuclear and CCGT.

The capacity factor assumed for solar thermal is the same as for nuclear, coal and gas. This requires that the solar thermal power stations have sufficient energy storage for 24 hour operation and can provide for 8,000 full-load hours per year. Needs (2008) forecast that this capability could be available by 2020. The additional capacity needed to ensure full power generation throughout winter and throughout periods of overcast weather (Lang, 2009b), is not allowed for in this analysis.

As for wind, transmission is a significant cost item for solar thermal. The capital expenditure for transmission for solar thermal is calculated at $1200/kW (based on estimates in AEMO, 2009). Electricity cost includes $15/MWh for transmission.

Option 6 – Solar Thermal, Wind and Gas

For this option, it is assumed that solar thermal is commissioned at the same rate as in Option 5 – Solar Thermal & CCGT. Wind, CCGT and OCGT are commissioned at the same rate as in Option 4 – Wind & Gas. The solar capacity does not reduce the amount of gas capacity needed to back-up for the wind capacity. Gas capacity required to back up for wind does not change but the amount of energy the gas generates does change, with the gas generators working at lower capacity factors.

The energy generated by solar thermal is the same as in Option 5 – Solar Thermal and CCGT. The energy generated by wind is the same as in Option 4 – Wind & Gas. The energy generated by OCGT and CCGT makes up the energy deficit. Figure 6 shows how much energy is produced by each technology.

CO2 emissions for wind and solar are assumed to be zero in this analysis (see Table 1). CO2 emissions for OCGT, CCGT, coal and the other seven technologies are calculated in the same way as for Option 4 – Wind and Gas.

The capital cost calculations for this option are similar to those for Option 4 – Wind & Gas and Option 5 – Solar Thermal & CCGT. The capital cost of the solar capacity in this option is the same as for Option 5 – Solar Thermal & CCGT. The capital cost of the wind capacity is the same as for Option 4 – Wind & Gas. The capital cost of the gas capacity is less than Option 4 – Wind & Gas because of the contribution from solar thermal; solar thermal provides its share of energy and the gas makes up the deficit. Transmission cost is included at $15/MWh for solar thermal and for wind.

Build rates

The rate of decommissioning coal and commissioning the replacement generating capacity, for each option, is summarised in Table 3. The figures in the shaded cells are prescribed inputs and the unshaded cells are calculated values.

Electricity Costs

The cost of electricity, for coal and the replacement technologies, was calculated for each option. The electricity costs were calculated by applying the electricity cost unit rate (see Table 4 and Appendix 2) to the proportion of energy generated by each technology. Appendix 2 explains the sources and derivation of the electricity cost unit rates for use in this analysis.

CO2 Avoidance Cost

The CO2 avoidance cost (the cost to avoid a tonne of CO2 emissions) was calculated for each option. It is the difference in electricity cost between Business as Usual and the respective option divided by the difference in CO2 emission between the Business as Usual and the respective option.

Results

The results of the analyses are summarised in Figures 7 to 12.

Figure 7 compares the total CO2 emissions per year from the six options.

Figure 8 compares the capital expenditure per 5 years for the six options. The capital expenditure is for coal and the replacement technologies only. The capital expenditure for the other seven technologies is the same for all options; these costs are not included in the total capital expenditure figures shown here.

Figure 9 compares the cumulative capital expenditure of the six options.

Figure 10 shows the long run marginal cost of electricity for coal and the replacement technologies only. These costs do not include the cost for the seven technologies that are the same in all options.

Figure 11 compares the options on the basis of the CO2 avoidance cost; i.e. the cost to avoid a tonne of CO2.

Discussion

The following can be interpreted from Figures 7 and 8:

Option 1 – Business as Usual produces the highest CO2 emissions by a large margin. Capital expenditure is fairly consistent at about $10 to $15 billion per 5 years, or about $2 to $3 billion per year.

Option 2 – CCGT has the highest emissions of the replacement options. It has the lowest capital cost of all options (although it has the highest operating cost). The CO2 emissions with this option are only slightly less in 2050 than in 2010. The reason the curve turns up from 2040 is that all coal fired power stations have been decommissioned. Therefore, CCGT is being added but no coal is being removed. So we are adding emissions from the CCGT without cutting any from coal generation.

Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT has the lowest CO2 emissions from 2020. It has the lowest capital expenditure, except Business as Usual and CCGT, for most of the period from 2010 to 2050. From 2035 the capital expenditure rate decreases.

Option 4 – Wind, with CCGT and OCGT for back-up, produces slightly lower CO2 emissions than the CCGT. However, this is achieved at high cost – about $4 billion to $6 billion per year more than CCGT. The step up in expenditure in 2040 is for replacement of the wind capacity installed in 2015. The emissions increase from 2040 as electricity demand increases and once the coal generators have been decommissioned.

Option 5 – Solar Thermal and CCGT. Solar thermal capacity is built at half the rate of nuclear, and provides half the energy. CCGT must be built faster in the solar option than in the nuclear option to make up the energy deficit. The CO2 emissions from 2010 to 2019 are the same for the three options CCGT, Nuclear & CCGT and Wind & CCGT. From 2020, the CO2 emissions from the solar thermal option are higher than from the nuclear option. By 2050, the CO2 emissions from the solar thermal option are over three times those from the nuclear option, and increasing as electricity demand increases. The capital expenditure for the solar option is substantially higher than for nuclear throughout.

Option 6 – Solar, Wind and Gas is a combination of Options 4 and 5. CO2 emissions are the second lowest from 2020 to 2050. Importantly, this option requires around $5 billion to $6 billion per year higher capital expenditure than nuclear to 2030. From 2030 to 2050 the difference in capital expenditure blows out to over $10 billion per year higher rate of expenditure for this option.

Figure 9 shows the cumulative capital cost and Figure 10 shows the long run marginal cost of electricity (LRMC). The following can be interpreted from these two charts:

CCGT is the lowest cost option throughout the period from 2010 to 2050.

Nuclear & CCGT has the lowest total cost (cumulative capital expenditure) of all options except Business as Usual and CCGT. The electricity cost for the Nuclear & CCGT option peaks in 2045 then starts to decrease as Natural Gas is decommissioned.

The steep rise in capital expenditure and electricity cost for the Wind option and the Solar Thermal and Wind option is because of the high cost of Wind and because Wind is being added at the rate of 1.4 GW per year from 2011, which is three times the rate Wind was commissioned in 2008.

The options with wind and solar thermal produce the highest cost electricity throughout.

The cumulative capital expenditure for the Solar Thermal option is about 30% higher than for nuclear. This is despite the fact that the solar thermal capacity is being built at half the rate of nuclear.

Important to note: The electricity cost for the Solar Thermal, Wind and Gas option is higher than the Solar Thermal and CCGT option. This indicates that combining renewable energy generators does not reduce the cost.

Figure 11 compares the options on the basis of the cost of avoiding a tonne of CO2 emissions. The CCGT option has the lowest avoidance cost to 2035 and then the Nuclear & CCGT option is lowest thereafter. The difference, in 2015, between the options that have Wind in their mix ($163/tCO2-e) and those that do not (50/tCO2-e) is because wind with gas back up is far more expensive but avoids insignificant extra emissions (see Figure 7). In the long run, Nuclear & CCGT is the least cost way to reduce emissions from electricity generation. The options with Wind and Solar are the highest cost way to avoid emissions.

How achievable are the assumed build rates?

The build rate for Business as Usual has been achieved consistently to date, so there can be no doubt that it is achievable.

The build rate for CCGT is about twice the build rate for coal in the Business as Usual case and about 15 times the current build rate for Natural Gas generation plant.

The build rate for wind capacity (1.4 GW per year) is about 3 times the build rate achieved in 2008 (0.48 GW) (GWEC, 2008). For comparison, in 2008 USA installed 8.4 GW and China 6.3 GW (GWEC, 2009). Interestingly, developed countries with larger economies than Australia, installed not much more than Australia, e.g. Canada (0.5 GW). AER (2009), Table 1.4 shows a peak for proposed commissioning of 2.8 GW in 2011. In practice, the build rate for wind will be limited by transmission capacity and the amount of wind power that can be accepted by the grid. The assumed build rate of 1.4 GW per year (500-700 turbines a year based on current turbine sizes) seems achievable in the future.

The rate of commissioning nuclear from 2020 to 2025 is 1 GW per year. That is equivalent to one new reactor per mainland state every 5 years. To put this in perspective, France commissioned its Gen II nuclear power plants at the rate of 3 GW per year for two decades (WNA, 2009). And Japan, China and Korea have been building the new Gen III nuclear power plants in about 4 years. So, it would seem the build rate for nuclear assumed here could be achieved from 2020, if necessary.

The assumed rate of commissioning solar thermal in these analyses, seems highly optimistic. The quantity of steel and concrete required is an indication of the amount of construction effort required. Solar thermal requires about 8 times more concrete and 15 times more steel than nuclear per MW of capacity (Table 5). The build rate for solar thermal, assumed in these analyses, is half the rate of nuclear, so each year we would need to construct solar thermal plants comprising 4 times more concrete and seven times more steel than the nuclear plants. But that’s not all. Nuclear would be built relatively close to the population centres, where services, infrastructure and work force is more readily available. Conversely, the solar plants need to be built in the desert regions. They will require four times as much water (for concrete) as nuclear. Water pipe lines will need to be built across the desert to supply the water. Dams will need to be built in the tropical north to store water and desalination plants along the coast elsewhere. To develop and retain a skilled work force to work in such regions will be costly. Work will be for about 9 months of the year to avoid the hottest periods. Based on the quantities of steel and concrete, towns will be required in the desert that accommodate about four times the work force required for constructing a nuclear power station. Fly-in-fly-out airports will need to be built for each town with a capability to move much larger numbers of people than the largest mining operations. Two such towns and airfields must be built per year to achieve the solar thermal build rate. It is hard to imagine how a build rate for solar thermal could be even 1/10th the build rate that could be achieved with nuclear.

The build rate for nuclear would be difficult to achieve. But the build rates for solar thermal would be much more difficult to achieve.

Sensitivity to assumptions and inputs

The results are highly sensitive to some of the assumptions and inputs. The most sensitive inputs are the projections of future capital cost, electricity cost, and the development rates for solar thermal. However, the ranking of the options under different inputs, and therefore the conclusions are robust over the ranges tested.

Answers to the questions

This paper set out to address the two questions stated in the Introduction, viz.:

1. Does it make sense to build wind power as fast as possible until 2020, at least, so we can cut greenhouse gas emissions as quickly as possible and start cutting as early as possible?

2. Would a mix of technologies be better able to meet the demand and do so at lower cost? For example, would a mix of solar and wind be lower cost than either alone, and lower cost than nuclear?

Figure 11 provides the answers.

The answer to Question 1 is ‘No’. Figure 11 shows the emissions avoidance cost for the options without wind is $50/tCO2-e and for the options with wind is $163/tCO2-e in 2015. In 2020, the ranking is the same but the costs are higher (see Figure 11).

The answer to Question 2 is ‘No’. The option with the mix of Solar Thermal and Wind has the highest avoidance cost of all options. It has the highest capital expenditure by far (Figures 8 and 9), and the highest electricity cost (figure 10). Its CO2 emissions are greater than the nuclear option. It has no advantages.

Figure 12 summarises the position in 2050. The figure compares the six options on the basis of the electricity cost of the coal and replacement technologies and the total CO2 emissions per year for each option. Clearly, the Nuclear and CCGT option produces the lowest emissions and the cost penalty is marginally higher than CCGT.

Conclusions

The Nuclear power option will enable the largest cut in CO2-e emissions from electricity generation.

The Nuclear option is the only option that can be built quickly enough to make the deep cuts required by 2050.

The Nuclear option is the least cost of the options that can cut emissions sustainably.

Wind and solar are the highest cost ways to cut emissions.

A mixture of solar thermal and wind power is the highest cost and has the highest avoidance cost of the options considered. Mixing these technologies does not reduce the cost, it increases the cost.

The results are sensitive to the input assumptions and input data, but the ranking of the options, and therefore the conclusions, are robust to the changes of inputs tested.

——————————————————————

For more information on assumptions and calculations, with references to source material, please read the 32-page PDF version.

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By Barry Brook

Barry Brook is an ARC Laureate Fellow and Chair of Environmental Sustainability at the University of Tasmania. He researches global change, ecology and energy.

342 replies on “Emission cuts realities for electricity generation – costs and CO2 emissions”

$180,000 million? Over at Crikey, a correspondent pointed to the Zero Carbon Australia 2020 project, which purports to lay out a plan for Australia to be 100% renewable by 2020 (seriously!). Their bottom line is $367,000 million for a 60/40 mix of CST and wind, or over double the CST-only scenario outlined above, and purports to take transmission into account.

Even if this is realistic (which I still doubt), I’d love to see how many reactors we could build for $367,000,000,000.

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I hope so Peter.

The anti-nuke crowd there are simply hysterical.

In one way I feel kind of bad. Although I never got to the place they are in, even at my most sceptical, for a long time I harboured much of the underlying sentiment they vent. In a way that they can’t currently grasp, I really do empathise with them.

They see me as some sort of Jedi-mindtrick spinmeister running nuclear propaganda, because I know exactly where they are coming from and where they are going. So I copped enormous abuse there. One of them even referred to you as if you were one of my staff. You have to laugh.

It really is sad that it has got to this. I really did try to keep the discussion focused on the substantive matters but they were determined it would be a flame war — (nuking the discussion? ;-) a tactic designed to force JQ to close the thread, which he ultimately did.

Wouldn’t it be nice if we could simply line up all the options, draw up a ledger and pick the best from that without bringing up irrelevant emotional nonsense?

This is energy policy — not sports.

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367 billion bloody dollars!!?

Well, at least their economic analysis is probably plausible.
But it obviously does not make the slightest bit of sense, unless you start with an anti-nuclear-energy dogma.

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Fran,

I feel for what you went through on that thread. All I can say is: chin up, dust off, and take on some more anti-nukes elsewhere. I reckon you did a really great job. If that thread ends now, without more anti-nuke comments, then I am pretty pleased with the outcome. I hope some may go away and think about those last few posts.

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Luke, $367 billion for an all renewables system to provide all our electrcity is not even close to plausable. Have a look at my recent comments here: http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2010/05/06/nuclear-power-the-last-post/comment-page-6/#comment-262326 and in the comments up thread at: https://bravenewclimate.com/2010/01/09/emission-cuts-realities/#comment-65305. Also look at Figure 9 this thread’s lead article, (but note that the capital costs of solar in this paper do not allow for the overbuild required).

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Peter, great stuff, I admire your ability to deliver patient comprehensive replies.

Fran, I followed a lot of that thread, and you’re an absolute trooper.

I hazard a guess that BilB may be a screen name for Scott Bilby, one of the Beyond Zero Emmissions campaigners and web jockeys. But I do not know this.

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peter: you state a cost for csp as $16,000/kw (BIIB’s reference), indicating that it leaves out some costs “above.”

I thought some of your “above” might have been included in the 16,000 figure so could you say precisely what that figure excludes?

and great work. that quiggan site is pretty toxic.

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Gregory,

The A$16,000 is a conversion from EUR read from Figure 7 here: http://www.solarthermalworld.org/files/global%20potential%20csp.pdf?download

This figure does include some cost for transmission (for Europe and USA) but the costs would be considerably more in Australia. The figure does not include the overbuild required to allow full availability for on demand power throughout the year. Also, the figure does not include the much higher cost of building the plants throughout the Australian desert.

If anyone picks up that I am wrong on any of this, please let me know.

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Alright, I am not going to spend much time on this as I have a huge work load.

The quick test for orders of magnitude is to take known performance, in this case we will use the 20 year average for segs viii at harpers lake, and divide it into Australia’s total electricity consumption, for this exercise 220 billion kwhr per annum.

This yields 1571 segs viii 80 meg equivalents to generate Australia’s total electricity requirement.

So that is 80 times 1571 divided by 1000 to give gigawatts at 126. In the absense of price information for segs viii I will use the European figure of 1.7 billion for a standard single solar multiple hybride with some storage. this yields a 214 billion dollar price tag for total energy delivery. Now your going to launch into the capacity argument, but recognise that this model includes gas burning backup so there is no additional solar multiple. This simple calculation included 3 times as many turbine houses as are required. However the cost of these is balanced against the cost of the storage for each the fields used as solar multiples.

There is no logic available to turn that 214 billion dollars in to 4200 billion.

Using the SolarPaces document 30 times 6 giving 180 billion, there is corellation of order of magnitude at 1.035 .

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BilB, – Do you really think anyone here is so stupid that they will buy into something like that?

I’ve seen better mathematical reasoning from numerologists than what you are trying to float here.

You are just embarrassing yourself now, and it’s getting painful to watch.

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Now your going to launch into the capacity argument, but recognise that this model includes gas burning backup so there is no additional solar multiple.

So here we haave it. when presssured, this model ‘renewables’ advocate has no cchoice but to admit that his preferred system is useless without fossil fuel backup, and is therefore nothing more than an excuse to continue burning those fossil fuels. The whole scheme is a natgas greenwashing exercise cynically marketed as a low carbon option when the opposite is the case.

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That is a predictable response from you, dv8, can’t be bothered to think about anything that might challenge your prejudices, so just lash out. Deny, deny, deny. You’ve got to be a lawyer.

No, Finrod, gas is the safety backstop exactly as it is for, Nuclear. What I have demonstrated takes no account for wind wave geothermal PV field or PV distributed. CSP is the perfect companion for wind and other renewables as its inbuilt storage allows for rapid reaction to demand fluctuations. And the SolarPaces system as described specifically nominated dry cooling towers. The total system offers the capacity factor with surplus.

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No, Finrod, gas is the safety backstop exactly as it is for, Nuclear. What I have demonstrated takes no account for wind wave geothermal PV field or PV distributed. CSP is the perfect companion for wind and other renewables as its inbuilt storage allows for rapid reaction to demand fluctuations.

You have stated that home battery storage isn’t an issue because homes will have grid access, and you’ve stated that ‘renewables’ storage isn’t an issue because the grid will have gas backup, and now you’re saying that the gas isn’t an issue because you’ll have ‘renewables’ storage backup. Where are you going to try to hide next?

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BilB – it’s a predictable response from me, because it is a typical set of assertions by you – completely devoid of logical content. Your calculations don’t make any sense, and and your assumptions are utterly shallow and indefensible.

You stupid little wannabe, do you think I haven’t done the calculations? How do you think I came around to supporting nuclear energy? Most of us here would love the idea of powering our homes and cars on solar panels on the roof, and seeing our industries run on windmills and biogas. Unfortunately it is not to be, and we know it BECAUSE we have done the math AND we have the education to do it properly.

You are a nobody without any qualifications, trying to blow smoke up everyone’s butts, and Fin and I and the rest here see straight through you.

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BilB,

You still have not provided the basis of your estimate, which you undertook to do. I am waiting for you to do so. Then I can lead you through, step by step, why it is a gross underestimate.

The first thing you will need to understand is that if we want a total solar system (which is what you started off saying), we must have sufficient storage to get through the winter, and especially the extended periods of overcast conditions. You’ll need to provide figures for the worst case scenario, because that is what we need to design for.

What is the lowest capacity factor for 1 day, 3 days, 5 days, 10 days?

How will you generate the power to meet demand on those days?

If you are now saying that you will use gas to generate through those periods, then we’ll need a lot of gas generating capacity. The only saving is on fuel. We’ll need the capital cost for the full solar capacity and the full gas capacity.

But the gas capacity will be far more expensive if located at the solar plants than if it is located near the demand centres. We’ve now moved from needing towns during construction for each solar power station to needing permanent towns at each solar power station. These are needed for the crews to maintain and operate the hybrid power stations. Not only that, we need the gas pipelines to each power station. And the pipes have to be sized to carry the full gas flow for the gas turbines when running at full power. But they will only be used 5% of the time. So the cost per MWh of electricity generated will be very high. Not only do we need pipelines laid across the desert, sized for full power generation, we also need pump stations along the pipelines. So, to build and operate your proposed system, we need:

1. Dams and desalination plants along the coast, up to 2000 km from the power stations

2. Pipelines running from the dams and desalination plants to the power stations. The pipes must be capable of carrying twice the amount of water to each 250MW CST power station as would be needed for the construction of a 1000MW nuclear plant.

3. Pump stations at intervals along the pipelines

4. Transmission lines along the pipe lines to power the pumps

5. gas pipes to each CST power station

6. Towns at each 250MW CST power station. Each town will need to accommodate some 2 to 4 times as many workers as are needed to build a 1000MW nuclear power station. These towns will have to be constructed at the rate of about 5 per year

7. A ‘fly-in fly-out’ airport for each town. These airports will have to be sized to carry a very much higher traffic volume than those we have at the mining sites.

8. I wonder what else is not included in your estimate.

9. Extending this thought a bit (just for fun!!), the only way we could get the workforce needed to achieve what you are proposing is if the ‘fly-in fly-out’ workers were coming in from China, Korea, Indonesia, etc.

10. So we’d need airports suitable for jumbo jets. We’d need Customs and Immigration facilities at each CST.

11. And jails for the lunatics that got us into this mess.

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I realise that you are just tugging my chain here, but,
the CSP has storage built into its design that is what the solar multiple is about. In the extreme impossibility that the country is entirely shrouded with cloud, all the wind stops and the seas are becalmed the CSP system has gas available to power the system. Home battery storage is an option not a necessity until the grid shows signs of instability. Anyway.

The reality is that the entire rebuild of the energy industry is not stalled by renewables it is stall by CCS and the determination of the politicians to squeeze every last dollar from coal, at the expence of all else. We are in a holding pattern while “Clean Coal” has its day.

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Bilb,

Only my last couple of points are ‘tugging your chain’. I am dead serious that you have not understood the real costs of what you are proposing.

There are some more cost to add to my previous post.

1. The workforce could only work on the construction for about 9 months a year because of the heat in the desert. So most costs will be raised by a factor of 4/3.

2. Hourly costs for equivalent will be at least double the cost of working on an NPP in the inhabited parts of the country. (Did you know that a train driver’s salary is $180,000 per year in the Pilbara?)

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BilB – Do you have any concept of the mass required to store the sort of heat you would need to make a CSP system able to store its own heat? Do you even know how much energy is needed to make a pound of steam or how many pounds of steam you would need to produce from that system each and every hour to generate 1GWe? There isn’t a practical engineered system in the world that can store that much heat for any length of time

Absence of a decent storage technology means you can’t really time-shift electricity demand. When more electricity is needed (for example, to run air conditioning during the day in the American Southwest) more power plants have to be running and feeding power to the grid in real time. There’s no way to run plants at night and store the generated power for daytime use.

Transmission losses mean our ability to space-shift demand is limited, too, though not as severely. Electricity-intensive industries (the classic example is aluminum smelting) need their own dedicated power plants nearby.

Talk of linking a vast network of these sources of a large distance, fails to take into account transmission scheduling, control and costs.

The combination of these problems also means you cannot, practically speaking, aggregate lots of very small flows of electricity into one big one. It’s not just total volume of energy production that matters, but the energy density available to high-volume consumers at a given place at and at a given time.

This may sound like a dry technical points, but it has huge and nasty implications. Solar and wind power are both time-variable and low-density. Lacking good ways to time-shift and aggregate electricity, this means you can’t count on them to run factories and hospitals and computer server farms.

And there is no way anyone with any knowledge of how energy markets work will want to arbitrage that might not be there when the end-users are willing to pay a premium for it, which when you stop and think about will be the very times the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing,

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Peter that is a fair approach.

Items 1 to 4 not necessary. Water for town operations but not cooling towers as the SolarPaces system specifically uses dry towers. Some water is required. As pipe lines yes/maybe
Towns yes
Systems are more likely to be in blocks of 4 gig so bigger towns
Airport (country) is no big deal.
And certainly have fun with it, the workers are very much an issue. I know that I don’t want to live in the centre. But there are plaenty who do. You have to realise that towns (cities) servicing energy infrastructure are going to be wealthier locations than most country towns. I find that part of it kind of interesting. These could be towns as never before done.
do recognise that we are over congesting our cities in a destructive manner, with the projected population increase a system such as this could well provide new life to parts of the Country. Much of what you have described has to be built anyway. And that is a whole other discussion.

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Water for town operations but not cooling towers as the SolarPaces system specifically uses dry towers. Some water is required.

The mirrors will need to be pressure washed every 3-5 days, or the build-up of dust and grime will significantly impair their efficiency. Where does this water come from? Also, what effect will the run-off have on the desert ecosystem? How will it effect plant growth around the mirror fields?

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Bilb,

In the extreme impossibility that the country is entirely shrouded with cloud, all the wind stops and the seas are becalmed …

You wouldn’t have made this remark unless you haven’t read, or if you did you didn’t understand, this:

Solar realities and transmission costs – addendum

Akso, have you read the article at the top of this thread. It shows that a mix of renewables costs even more. So we cannot hide from the problem by saying” when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing we’ll use wave or tidal power or some other renewable energy dream.

BilB, you should by now be beginning to realise that you’ve bought into a religious like belief in renewable energy. If you haven’t reached that stage, it is understandable. You are in the position of a drug addict that cannot accept what he is being told. He is in denial.

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Bilb,

Items 1 to 4 not necessary. Water for town operations but not cooling towers as the SolarPaces system specifically uses dry towers. Some water is required.

BilB, once again you either haven’t read my previous comments to you or you haven’t understood them.

The amount of water required during construction of a 250MW CST is defined by the amount of concrete. That means we need about 4 times as much water for a 250MW CST as we would need for a 1000MW nuclear power plant.

Furthermore, if you want to build a 250MW CST in say half the time we’d take to build a 1000MW power plant, then you’d need to double the pipe and pumping capacity – to 8 times that needed for construction of an NPP.

Can you follow this? Let me know if you want me to explain it again. I previously pointed this out to you in point 2 of my comment up thread: 14 May 2010 at 12.24

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The mirrors will need to be pressure washed every 3-5 days, or the build-up of dust and grime will significantly impair their efficiency. Where does this water come from?

Perhaps we need to start thinking outside the box on this issue, and not be blinkered by our narrow belief systems. Does the fluid used to clean the mirrors need to be water? We could get around this issue by using supercritical CO2. There is a substantial research effort going into CCS technology for new coal plants, so we can expect to soon have an unlimited source of CO2 to work with. All we need to do is mate a CSP park with an appropriately sized CCS coal station. Not only will we have a clean coal station on site, but we’ll also have an adequate supply of mirror cleaning fluid which will disperse harmlessly into the environment after flowing downhill a while. And we can use the coal plant to back up the CSP! You see, we just have to think holistically about things.

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BilB,

do recognise that we are over congesting our cities in a destructive manner, with the projected population increase a system such as this could well provide new life to parts of the Country. Much of what you have described has to be built anyway.

This is total fruit-loop thinking.

Firstly, no one will want to live in the desert unles they are being paid an enormous amount of money to do so. We know that because we have miners flying in and flying out.

Secondly, the cost has to be paid by the electricity consmer. All these items I’ve mentioned have to be included in the cost of electricity from the CST power stations.

We are discussing the cost of your proposal. I am explaining to you some of the things you have omitted from your cost estimate.

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I don’t have to know, dv8, it is the European energy people who are developing these systems, but I do have an appreciation of what is involved. I was just having a look at it there and I’ve discovered that they are probably running their Rankine cycle system on a synthetic fluid rather than water. There are a few clues which put together with the fact that water has a specfic latent heat only exceeded by hydrogen in the short list, suggests a measure to reduce cooling tower energy losses.

Peter L

The heat work item is an issue no less so for me in my factory when the temperature hits 48. So I am owrking on solutions for that (periodically). Apart from that there is a mass of automation being developed for huge CSP installations (airconditioned cab territory)

The train driver thing is a maining industry phenomenon. There was a mine in tasmania where the toilet cleaners were getting a similar figure, nefore the mine shut down.

Some years ago I knew that they were achieving 6 hours storage with concrete blocks. Recently this has all changed to eutectic salts.

The Europeans declare that the storage is certain and I am happy to believe that.

I’ll go through your other points later on, because they are all very interesting.

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BilB, on 16 May 2010 at 16.16 Said:

“I don’t have to know, dv8, it is the European energy people who are developing these systems, but I do have an appreciation of what is involved. I was just having a look at it there and I’ve discovered that they are probably running their Rankine cycle system on a synthetic fluid rather than water. There are a few clues which put together with the fact that water has a specfic latent heat only exceeded by hydrogen in the short list, suggests a measure to reduce cooling tower energy losses

First you cannot hold a considered opinion, or even have an appreciation of what is involved in these matters if you do not know the basics. This is illustrated by the sentence I bolded – it is utter balderdash demonstrating you haven’t the faintest notion of what you are babbling on about.

Second – if it cannot be expressed in numbers, it is conjecture. Go and calculate how big a mass of concrete blocks is needed to store enough heat to make steam for six GWhre, or do the calculation for the mass of sodium sulfate decahydrate. You will see that the sheer size of the storage would be tremendous, and well outside any practical considerations.

“The Europeans declare that the storage is certain and I am happy to believe that.”

Well you are stupid enough to, I am sure. But show me a reference to this declaration – I would like to know why, if it is so good, they aren’t using it now.

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Bilb,

I’ll go through your other points later on, because they are all very interesting.

Don’t waste your time providing more narative. It is all total nonsense.

Instead, provide the basis of the cost estimate you said you could provide.

Once you’ve done that there may be some chance that you can be educated. Although I seriously doubt it.

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As a current lurker … thanks to the people doing the work (Peter in
particular). I’m sure there are plenty of nuke agnostics getting the
message on the difference between real costings and fairy floss costings.

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In my experience with this character, DV8 and Peter Lang, his advocacy is a cultural preference in search of an engineering figleaf.

He likes micro-energy systems because these smell more pluralistic and local — and thus authentic. He likes CSP because he likes the idea of getting energy from the sun “for free” and not giving the money to big companies. Apparently, CSP will be the province of small business, in his world.

Like the people who deny anthropogenic climate change, he knows he has to sound sciencey, but this is pure handwaving to cover his cultural preference.

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Peter and DV:

keep hitting BllB with the arguments, but dial back some on “idiot” and “nitwit.” [I’m referring to comments on all the threads].

I read the Quiggan site a bit to see how Peter (not to mention Fran) was treated over there and it was my sense that he was treated like he was an idiot (by BllB, and totally unjustifiably), so I get why there would be anger about this.

Most of us know the dynamic well. When I raise informational points about nuclear on some of my green left lists (not all; some are better than others), I’m told to go FUCK MYSELF (with no moderator intervention). and it actually has an effect. I stop posting for a long while or stop responding to anti nuke disinformation.

Dialing back on insults is very hard to do–especially when we think they are well deserved. I myself have a difficult time. I sort of insulted Peter about his views of the housing crisis and I think he stopped replying to my questions for a while (maybe; maybe not).

There are places for insults: it’s really a question of where individuals draw the us/them line and we all draw it somewhere. but it seems to me that the renewables/nuclear us/them, though very difficult to overcome, is especially irrational given the commitment of most in this discussion to reducing ghgs, among other things.

another dynamic I have noticed is that some of us have a tendency to be nastier on our home fields so to speak. As if we feel protected and can therefore insult away. We are polite on other people’s turf because no one has our back. (not sure this is the case with our DV, whose self confidence is high and who calls em as he sees em.)

at any rate, I hope people realize the value of this discussion, insults and all.

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greg meyerson – Thank-you. You are quite right. I occasionally need to be reminded of Anglophone sensibilities to this type of minor insult, and that they may have a greater impact than I intend on those watching.

I will be more careful, and do not hesitate to remind me at any time I am letting my language get out of hand.

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Greg,

Thank you for the reminder. I agree with all you say.

BTW, I do not remember anything about the ‘housing crisis” comments or discussion you mention. Not the slightest recollection, so no need to worry about that.

As DV82XL said:

I will be more careful, and do not hesitate to remind me at any time I am letting my language get out of hand.

Please remind me too.

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Yes Greg, this is indeed a word to the wise. Most of us slip up with this one from time to time — I know I have — it’s hard not to when you feel passionate about something and others are insulting you unreasonably, but it is worth recalling that it’s the something you’re passionate about that you ought to be discussing rather than the ethical and intellectual worthiness of other people.

If you can’t set out your problems with what others say without speaking uncivilly, you might conclude that you won’t do the best possible job of explaining the problems as you see them.

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The thing about insults is they generally have the opposite effect to what was intended. People actually become hardened in their beliefs – however wrong they are.

I heard an interesting radio program the other day discussing the results of a study which showed that the less someone knew about a subject the more certain they were that their answers to questions about the subject were right. Students that got one answer right in ten thought they got 5 or more right whereas knowledgeable students often under estimated their results. Just telling the poorer students their answers were wrong didn’t improve their performance.

Once the poorer students were properly educated in the subject they could then see that their answers were wrong (to much embarrassment).

Personally I am convinced this is the problem we have in the nuclear power debate. Those that have studied the subject in depth can readily see the benefits. For those that have not, many would rather believe the rhetoric and can see no reason to become educated so will never be persuaded by insults or being told they are wrong for they know they are right!

However there is a large body of people who are not knowledgeable about nuclear power who may be cautious about it but who can be influenced by education. If we can get enough of those onside then the naysayers will become an uninfluential minority (he said hopefully).

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I’ve just been sent “The Cost of Transmission for Wind Energy”

Click to access lbnl-1471e.pdf

Exerpt from the Executive Summary:

The total range in unit transmission costs for wind implicit in these studies is vast – ranging from
$0/kW to over $1,500/kW. The majority of studies, however, have a unit cost of transmission
that is below $500/kW, or roughly 25% of the current $2,000/kW cost of building a wind project.
The median cost of transmission from all scenarios in our sample is $300/kW, roughly 15% of
the cost of building a wind project.1 In terms of cost per megawatt-hour of wind power
generation, the aggregate range of transmission costs is from $0/MWh to $79/MWh, with a
median of $15/MWh and most studies falling below $25/MWh.

The figure of A$15/MWh I used in the analyses (see lead article for this thread) is a little lower than this study would suggest.

However, the median cost of US$300/kW is a lot lower than the A$1,000/kW I used, and have been using in my analyses for Australia.

I’d make the following comments:

1. This report puts the cost of new wind projects in the USA at US$2,000/kW. In Australia, the cost is about $2,600/kW (according to ABARE). So 15% to 25% of $2,600/kW is $390/kW to $650/kW

2. I notice that the work this group is doing is largely related to renewables so I wonder if this may affect the results.

3. Australia does not have a transmission system that is as well developed as the USA’s. I suspect it will cost us more per MW to build the transmissions system to support wind power projects along our southern coastlines.

4. I’ll continue to use $1,000/kW as a rough cost for transmission for wind power, given that my calculatins are of scenarios with a very high penetration of wind power.

5. Can anyone provide an authoritative source of transmissions costs for nee wind power projects in Australia for the case where wind is being extended to 20% to 50% capacity penetration?

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Greg M,

I got annoyed at Peter L because he refused to register that the answer was in the SolarPaces document, repeatedly. I read his piece, he did not read the other. And that was important because he refused to justify, and to date has still failed to justify his calim that CSP would cost 140 billion dollars per gigawatt. The argument has not gone away, I just have work to do to catch after spending far too long on this sort exercise. I think that it is important to get the bottom of it and for Peter Lang to justify his claim. And yes keep hammering away at BilB, I’m up for it, because I clearly have a better grasp of the issues than you guys collectively do. Work.

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Bilb,

First, you were arroogant and very insulting from the very first post on the John Quiggin thread, and continued. So I responded in kind.

Second you said you could justify your estimate, and then continually reneged on that undertaking.

Third, the full basis of my estimates are laid out in the papers. I have referred you to them repeatedly. You haven’t read them yet, despite me reminding you repeatedly. So much of your criticisms and preconceived ideas are because you haven’t read them (and didn’t read the first one with an intention to try to understand).

Fourth, I did read the paper you are relying on and did include comments on it in the two posts I put on John Quiggin’s web site. The tow posts were subsequently deleted, but are posted on this thread (14 May 2010 at 12.21 and 12:24)

Fifth, I have pointed you to those and other comments repeatedly. But you don’t seem to read them.

Sixth, I’ve said repeatedly, that once you provide the basis of your estimate, which you undertook to do, I’ll lead you through what is wrong with it.

Seventh, can I suggest you take some time to get up to speed on energy matters. A great place to start would be to go to the “Renewable Limits” tab, at the top of the page, and start reading the linked papers, from the top.

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BilB,

Can I suggest:

1. read; https://bravenewclimate.com/2010/01/09/emission-cuts-realities/#comment-65305 and https://bravenewclimate.com/2010/01/09/emission-cuts-realities/#comment-65306

2. read: https://bravenewclimate.com/2009/09/10/solar-realities-and-transmission-costs-addendum/ including the appendix

3. read: the lead article to this thread

4. Fullfil you undertaking to provide the basis of your estimate of $180 billion as the capoital cost of CST to meet the NEM’s 2007 demand.

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Barry Brook

Yes the mirrors do need cleaning (it should be noted that that water does not necessarily go to waste), and the only real argument is the effect of CSP on the desert ecosystem. By all accounts this is small. Keep in mind that the area required is of similar scale to the hunter valley open cut coal mine, and dwarfed by iron ore mining. Australia doesn’t seem to care.

Peter Lang

All of your points are unqualified guess work. The biggest single cost in a CSP installation is the turbine house. In an installation using salt for storage the amount of concrete is not of the scale that you have “imagined”. One thing about CSP is that it does contaminate its foundations with radioactive seepage as nuclear plants seem to do.

Peter L, feel free to insult away, that is understandable with this highly emotive topic. But most importantly stick to facts and reality. Unlike your comment above where you admit that your costings are inflated 3 fold over reality base on REaL research, which once you had read you decided to stick with your infalted costings on power trasmission.

You do without realising that you shoot the nuclear arguement in foot, simply because the only real chance that Nuclear has of getting a foot hold in Australia is to put it as far away from populations and our very essential mountain range bounded coast line as possible. This obviously requiring the HVDC trunk line as does CSP eventually.

But otherwise you clearly haven’t got the foggiest clue as to the costs of building a CSP installation, despite the fact that information is readily available.

What is the mirror area per sq klm
What is the cost of production and installation
How much steel is there really
What is the energy yield per sq klm
What is the cost of the turbine house
What type of turbines are they
What is the cost of storage
How much storage is required
What is meant by a hybride system
What is the ideal field size
What are the limitations for field design
What are the solutions for the field layout limitations
Where are the future efficiency improvements
What is the efficiency scope for those improvements
What is the life of a solar field
What are the operating considerations
How many staff are required
How are operating costs managed
What is the scope for reducing operating costs
In what manner will that be achieved
_
_
_
_

When you can answer all of those questions you will be able to start to make believeable pronouncements on the cost of CSP systems. Until then You are all wind.

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BilB,

How can I respond to this heap of unsubstantiated assertions, intermingled with many insulting comments. You apparently have not read the links I provided (that provide the basis of the estimate for CSP including cost of power block etc). You haven’t read or aunderstood any of the links I’ve provided. You havent understood any of what has been said to you in commentsd by me and others. You believe what you are reading about CSP because it suits your belief.

Unlike your comment above where you admit that your costings are inflated 3 fold over reality base on REaL research, which once you had read you decided to stick with your infalted costings on power trasmission.

BilB, that is one study amongst many. Based on all the studies and analyses by specialists within the industry, and the fact they use a rough rule of thumb of $1/W for transmission for wind in the early feasibility investrigation stage, I am sticking with the $1/W rather than this pro-renewables study. If I get better information from within the industry, I’ll change, but not based on just one academic report.

You certainly have a lot of emotion tied up in your belief in CSP. If you would provide the basis of estimate for your $180 billion figure, as you undertook to do, then I could begin to lead you through it. It would be interesting to see what figure we end up with. Are you scared to try?

Why have you avoided looking at this? https://bravenewclimate.com/2009/09/10/solar-realities-and-transmission-costs-addendum/

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@BilB

When you can answer all of those questions…

This is just breathtaking. Who is the CSP advocate here? That would be you, BilB. I’d have thought that casts a fair bit of onus in your direction.

Oh, and when/if you’re answering questions, would it kill you to provide a hyperlink or two? Phrases like ‘by all accounts’, ‘seems to’ and, most egregiously, ‘that information is readily available’ don’t cut it.

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I did like the nice irony of your “you are all wind” line, though. However, on reflection, a brighter spark should have focused on generating some more powerful substantiation to dish out.

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Peter L

One thing that I forgot to comment on with the GenII PV, is that because of its special construction it still keeps generating electricity on cloudy days, obvioulsy at a much reduced level. It is also seasonally self compensating. Total energy output drops but electrical output stays much the same. It is a beautiful system, assuming physical tests match the theory.

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BilB,

All your unqunatified and unsubstantiated assertions are totally meaningless. They are simply assertions. What we need is your basis of cost estimate. That is what the disagreement is about. That is what we need to get into. It is all about the cost. Do you intend to provide it?

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BilB, this can be quantified as the capacity factor of the system, as an annual average if seasonal compensation is important.

Can you tell us what the (yearly average) capacity factor of a GenII PV system is, relative to available commercial systems?

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Not so Mark,

Peter made a declaration of “overriding” understanding, and then stubstantiated that, not with substance, but his professional standing as an energy R&D manager and advisor to government. He then repeatedly maintained that his paper contained the answers, which by my reading of it bore absolutely no relevence to the claims on CSP. That is why he came in for derision. If he were a politician pulling this stunt he would be torn to shreds by the media. You guys have got to be a whole lot smarter than what is going on here.

The onus is on Perter to prove that “he” is the thing that he declares to be. Iam not seeing it yet, and you would surely have to see that I am doing him a favour.

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BilB, why do you care who Peter is? We’re not arguing about who you are, that is irrelevant. Simply read his paper and tell him where he is wrong – or which particular assumption(s) you object to, why you object to them, and offer a replacement assumption that can be better justified.

Yes the mirrors do need cleaning (it should be noted that that water does not necessarily go to waste), and the only real argument is the effect of CSP on the desert ecosystem. By all accounts this is small. Keep in mind that the area required is of similar scale to the hunter valley open cut coal mine, and dwarfed by iron ore mining.

This has answered nothing, and the comparisons with open cut coal mines and iron ore mines are meaningless, since we are talking here about demand for lots of fresh water in a remote desert. You still don’t say where the water is going to come from, or how it would “not go to waste”, or where the “by all accounts” is justified when saying the effect on desert ecosystems is small. To date, your statements are vacuous.

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BilB,

You haven’t read the papers!!!!! You do not read the comments nor follow the links. You do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Are you going to fulfill your obligation to provide the basis of your estimate of $180 billion as the capital cost of CST to meet the NEM’s 2007 demand?

If you don’t intend to do so, can you just say so, please. Then we can stop all this nonsense.

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The GenII PV is domestic and small business system with extremely compelling economics. I am market testing suitability and so far, very positive. GenII PV is going to create capacity problems for which the solutions are best handled with CSP, but frankly, I don’t care how the grid system copes. The dynamic energy management system that will come as standard with the GenII will have the ability to manage a household through extended non solar periods by intelligently controlling system configuration and energy useage.

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John Morgan,

Just a reminder, the cost estimate is based on the system with capability to provide baseload power (fully dispatchable with required availability factor; eg 90%) throughout the worst case conditions. For example, it must have the required availability throughout 1 day of worst case conditions if it has only 1 day of storage.

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Barry, Peter made an outlandish claim in another forum, which is similar to “going Public”. It is one thing for you guys to develop your arguments and ideas here, it is another to start extending the range of your influence. Before you do that you should really make sure that your arguments stack up properly.

Lots of fresh not necessarily so. I believe that there is a system being developed that recycles all of the cleaning fluid. It works in reverse by spraying at the perimeter and draws the fluid towards the centre in a tornado fashion, but the cleaning cavity is quite thing so the fluid surface residency time is quite high and the tests are also examining integrated repolishing along the lines of “ooze polishing”. There is alot of development under way. Much of the Saharan Desertec is coastal where water is less of an issue.

On the desert flora and fauna impacts (not my subject an all), fauna is relatively unimpeded and with better shade fed by insects that are definitely unimpeded, and flora still coexists but in a bonsaied form, as I understand it. Though you would have a far better insight into these issues .

Hopefully a little less vacuous.

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Since I’m supposed to control myself, I’ll only jump in for a moment to point out that all this BilB character is doing now it trying to throw sand in everyone’s face so they won’t notice he has run out of anything to say that is of any value. He knows he’s been cornered, and is fighting now, not to convince anyone here but to try and re-convince himself. He is beaten, and he knows it, he just won’t accept it. and is only trying to salve his wounded ego.

Personally, I have wasted enough time on this cretin. I will not comment further.

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Peter you are not listening, My argument is backed up by the SolarPaces published infromation which puts the cost of baseload CSP at 6 billion dollars/euros per gigawatt. That time 30 is 180 billion. Considering that any system, no matter what it is will be built over a 30 time frame, practical experience ained along the way will determine the ultimate configuration of the system. If capacity factors require a 50% larger installed capacity then that would take the cost to 270 billion, not 4200 billion as you have claimed. Your NEM’s 2007 argument is a red herring as I have said and all other authorities on the subject of solar energy have said, solar has a different delivery pattern and the peak delivery is in the middle of the day not the middle of the night. Furthermore the advanced metering being installed today has the ability to dynamically alter the off peak (demand) consumption.

However peaks aside the Solar Paces system is designed to deliver near constant power, with the ultimate backup coming from gas firing. I know that does not suit you as it is a total solution, exactly as it was designed to be. In solar multiple systems average gas firing energy amounted to 13% over years of experience. In the solar multiple 4 system that figure is likely to be between 2% and zero annually.

The last time that there was extended cloud cover over the centre was in 1998 when 2 pressure systems channelled moist air from the North West diagonally across Australia to saturate the East, and this held up for 6 weeks straight. That was the last time that Warragamba dam was full to capacity.

So your scenario can occur, but it is very rare, and fully catered for with the Hybride CSP configuration aided by, in future, wind generation and hydro which are powering at full capacity under those circumstances.

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You’ve nailed it DV8 … even at the Quiggin site, BilB’s “defence” was to attack me rather than defend his own claims about the efficacy of CSP.

And here, he cites no data at all, offers no links to data he regards as robust in its pertinent detail and covers with “by all accounts”.

The onus is surely on him, the proposer of an alternative to the current system to show that it can do the job of the technologies he proposes to retire at an economically acceptable cost.

It is undisputed by him that nuclear power can do this job, as it does so in many countries, though in Australia, it is still politically in the too controversial basket.

This is something with which he simply will not engage because he is emotionally connected with the notion of renewables.

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Fran,

There is only one source required here, and that is the source which you supplied, and that is the information made available to you as a result of your direct inquiry Dr Franz Trieb and the European energy organisation which he represents.

You are right I am intellectually connected to solar power solutions, but wrong in that it is an emotional attachment. Just as your collective connection to the nuclear solution is intellectual rather than emotional. Conceptionally the nuclear solution is elegent and compelling, practically it is problematic. But then all systems are problematic. It all comes down to which set of consequences will we live with best.

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Peter, I understand your point. What I’m getting at here is the GenII PV advantage BilB describes looks like it should appear as an uprated capacity factor. Suppose the CF goes up by 10%. Great! But we’re looking for much larger improvements before the decision over which technology to pursue would change.

BilB: you say this system is “seasonally self compensating”. What do you mean by this? Do you mean the system automatically reduces its output in response to lower light levels? Perhaps you mean it tracks.

You also state “Total energy output drops but electrical output stays much the same.”

This is inherently contradictory. The energy output of the PV system is electrical – you are saying its total energy output drops but its energy output stays the same.

GenII will have the ability to manage a household through extended non solar periods by intelligently controlling system configuration and energy useage.

From this I take it that where you say the seasonal compensation and the output stays the same even though it drops, you mean the energy output actually drops and the household or business has to live within the reduced energy budget.

A householder may choose to, but this is the sort of shell game you cannot play with the grid powering society as a whole. But lo,

frankly, I don’t care how the grid system copes

Aha. We do, and you should.

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John m, yes it does track. It has other properties that do exist to some degree in regular pv but are not utilised.

Yes, in extended non solar (that does not include winter) if the user is not grid connected then they have to live within the reduced energy budget (and before you leap onto that recognise most people will use this on grid, that is the intention). That is not as hard as it might seem as proper analysis of user needs reveals a very low energy consumption most of the time. Also this requires a significant battery such as a recycled EV battery pack.

I don’t care because it will be a long time before it matters, at least 15 years, and considering the energy action intransigence there is little point in configuring strategically for the future now other than to seek out the best options from a personal point of view. This is the area that the GenII PV will be aimed at. This system style has the ability to provide 50% of Australia’s electricity. It is in that context that it will provide capacity fluctuations.

6 months ago I was talking PV down. This is a whole different thing.

“and you should”

In the CSP sense I do. Capacity is totally covered in the system as described. There is no knockout blow for CSP there.

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The more that I think about it Nuclear’s best shot is in the centre. This resolves the a number of key barriers. The risk to the coastal fringe and its premium land value and tourism value. In the so doing the insurance feature is minimised. Other items I can’t be bothered to think out.

All you have to do to win this battle is reframe your argument in a manner that suits other peoples needs rather than your own.

But don’t expect me to not battle against it.

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BilB, thank you for that explanation. I wholly support individuals acting to reduce their individual greenhouse gas emissions, and for bringing in solutions as soon as they become available.

At the same time, I do not expect voluntary action at the individual level to be much more than a marginal contribution to our greenhouse gas reduction target (of 100%), because too few individuals will be sufficiently motivated to reduce their emissions completely, and fixing the domestic sector does not fix industrial or transport or other sectors. The main game is to get the grid sorted out. So this sort of system, while worthy, is not our solution.

How much does one of these puppies cost, batteries included? Whats its output? What would it cost to generate 50% (say, 12 GW) of our electricity using these systems? Is there another way we could spend that money that would give us more clean power, faster?

These are the questions we are trying to address here, and hopefully come up with a better alternative than assuming nothing will happen for fifteen years.

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What we are designing is a system with a rated electrical output of 10Kw. To achieve that, we have to take in 28 kw of energy and dispose of the other 18. We have a lot of control over what form the other 18kw takes. The other 18 kw is suitable for space heating, airconditioning, and water heating house and pool, as well as for energy storage.

That is as far as I am prepared to go with out describing the system in detail. We are targetting a price of 15 to 20 thousand for the main system. The airconditioning which has not been built for this scale before has an uncertain price at this stage. I am hoping fo 6 thousand. Recycled EV batteries I have no information but there is a Dutch researcher who has done a definitive study on the subject. Probe around.
Assuming that this system works as we believe it will particularly enhanced with the prospect of charging EV’s (VW Milano as the standard model) it becomes very compelling. I was just checking my factory electricity bill here. I used 23612 units in a year which cost at the current retail rate of 17 cents is 4700. This system is viable at that pricing level, however if electricity rises to the projected 25 cents then that becomes 7000 dollars and the GenII PV becomes a shoe in. I would install 2. And the airconditioning would be a very welcome bonus.

On that basis it is not inconceivable to propose 6 million units installed over 30 years.

The beauty about this is that it only involves private funds which are covered against avoided electricity expenditure. There is no drain on the public purse, and it measureably reduces the size of the industry restructuring cost, along with its gross turnover. So with the increased population and the shift towards more electricity consumption and the necessary system overcapacity required I think that the industry turnover will remain static in the medium term.

The GenII PV once paid out provides free electricity there after for the owner so when there is an overcapacity those suppliers are going to be the ones who lose. Independent brokers may find a niche by installing flow batteries which can store 20 watt hours per litre with a possible 40 watt hours per litre with other chemistry to soak up surplusses for sale at opportune times. I have not run any numbers to verify if that makes sense.

My output calculation is based on Sydney with 256 days at 7.5 solar hours per day time 10kw per solar hour. We have a lot of design flexibility to ensure that that output can be achieved.

That should give you enough in formation to include as a possible outcome for your “future” modelling.

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BilB, on 18 May 2010 at 13.19 Said:

There is no knockout blow for CSP there.

Yes there is. The knockout blow is that CSWP cannot supply baseload power. There is not a single CSP plant anywhere in the world that can provide baseload power. As the paper that BilB relies on clearly admits (page 6):

The comparison shows that CSP can become fully competitive between 2020 and 2030, and can later contribute significantly to stabilize global electricity costs.

In other words, some time in the way-off, never-never, CST may be economic to do something, perhaps!!

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Your entitled to draw that conclusion Peter, because that is how it is worded. The reality is as I understand it that is that that statement is based very much on orders. When I spoke to Trieb last, several years ago, there was a total of 3 gigawats installed in the world (I think that is how it went) but none of the installations on order were significant enough to achieve the best installation economies. It is about commitment. At the moment there is only minimal commitment for every technology, every where but China.

The Chinese 2 gig installation will be the primary test for full scale CSP.

But having read that much I hope that you took in the full intention of the paper.

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BilB,

You’ve misunderstood, again. We are talking about baseload CSP. Do you understand what that means?

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Peter, I know exactly what baseload means. You do not get baseload without system mass. Hybride CSP with storage delivers baseload even in modest scale. But is of little value in modest scale and

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/01/esolar-to-build-2-gw-of-solar-thermal-in-china

is and example of slow commitment (this turns out to be tower solar). Far from the roaring dragon I expected, even this is going to be slow. It might add light on Trieb’s projection time frame. It is not capability it is commitment.

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BilB,

So now you admit that all the nonsense you’ve been spruking up to now is just that – nonsense.

Furthermore, I take it that you now realise your estimate of $180 billion for CSP to supply the NEM’s 2007 demand is nonsense too, because CST cannot do the job at any cost. It is impossible. In fact it is unlikely it will ever be able to.

You will notice that the paper on CSP (that you haven’t yet read) qualifies the figure of $2,800 billion by pointing out this is a theoretical figure because CST cannot meet the requirements at any cost. In case you do want to read it, it is here: https://bravenewclimate.com/2009/09/10/solar-realities-and-transmission-costs-addendum/

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BilB,

Now that you’ve realised that you don’t have a clue about what you are talking, and you’ve realised that your estimate is ridiculous, it would be courteous if you could pluck up the courage to go back to the John Quiggin web site, point out that what you said is baseless and apologise to me, Fran and the others you insulted.

Then perhaps you might have the courage to apologise to all the customers you’ve misled.

Then walk into you bosses office and resign.

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Peter ,

You clearly did not understand the information. There is no rocket science there, it is really basic. Four systems from standard field to full baseload, 4 prices, how can you not understand that?? Fortuneately you have retired and are no longer a threat to industry.

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Well I just read through it a gain. You need a new computer because the one you are using appears to be jumbling up the words. There is no way you can draw conclusions as you have. Maybe you’re partially dislexic, Peter, and have never been diagnosed.

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Peter,

What I’ve decided to do here is put the documents together with your conclusions and send them to a friend who is a geologist with a masters degree from UNSW and has done both government and private work. He has managed some high profile enevironmental cleanups and now works as a kind of globe trotting trouble shooter for a major US environmental organisation. He is pro nuclear.

The question will be are the claims made in your JQ comments supported by your study. And are your statements generally reconcileable with the 2 documents.

Let one of your peers judge.

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BllB: if you are going to insult Peter, calling him dyslexic, get the spelling right because dyslexics have trouble spelling and you don’t want the insult to backfire.

(good natured ribbing)

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Just for interest, I decided to update my calculations of the ratio of concrete and steel for a Concentrating Solar Thermal (CST) power station compared with a nuclear power station.

I used the figures from the NEEDS studies for the CST reference technology and for nuclear. These figures are probably about as comparable and authoritative as we can get.

I’ve calculated the tonnes of concrete and steel for 1, 3, 5 and 10 days of full power generation. This is for the case when there is sufficient insolation to generate full power throughout the day but insufficient to store energy. So the generation at night is from storage.

This is a very simple, approximate calculation. Many variations are possible. We could argue about which technology to use for the calculations, what may be possible in the future and lots more. This calculation makes one huge simplifying assumption: there is no heat loss from energy storage over periods of 1, 3, 5, or 10 days! If we properly allowed for the heat loss from storage, I’d expect the mass of materials (such as steel and concrete) would be more than I’ve calculated here.

The following table shows the number of days of storage and the ratio of the mass of concrete and steel(CST/nuclear).

days Concrete Steel
1 6 20
3 16 57
5 26 95
10 51 190

This means, a CST system with 1 day of energy storage would need 6 times as much concrete and 20 times as much steel as a nuclear power station of the same capacity.

These are little changed from the previous analysis. The analysis in the lead article (Table 5) had the ratio as concrete = 8.1 and steel = 14.6.

The implications for the amount of water needed to build the CST (for concrete), the size of the work force, the size of the construction town and the ‘fly-in fly-out’ airports for each are little changed.

References:
NEEDS (2008), Table 7.3,

Click to access RS1a%20D12.2%20Final%20report%20concentrating%20solar%20thermal%20power%20plants.pdf

Needs (2007), Table 15

Click to access RS1a%20D14.2%20Final%20report%20on%20nuclear.pdf

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A way to interpret the 1,3, 5 and 10 days of energy storage is that the CST has the same availability as a nuclear power plant through 1, 3, 5 or 10 days of continuous overcast weather.

Sorry the table isn’t very clear. The last line of the table would be interpreted as follows: a CST with storage capacity for 10 days of ful power generating would need 51 times as much concrete and 190 times as much steel as a nuclear power station of the same capacity.

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I need to correct my statement of last night about the performance of the NEM wind farms. This is what I should have said:

1. The following refers to the 1609 MW of NEM wind farms where the 5-minute output data is available from the AEMO web site.

2. On 17 May 2010 the average output from these wind farms was 31MW (CF= 1.9%)

3. On 18 May 2010 the average output from these wind farms was 16MW (CF = 0.97%)

4. On 17 May 2010, the output between 18:00 and 19:00 was 18MW (CF = 1.11%)

5. On 17 and 18 May there was negative generation for 67 5-minute periods. That is, the wind farms were drawing more power than they were generating.

Ref: http://windfarmperformance.info/

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I tried to post this on the BZE web site, but the site does not accept comments or questions.

Questions about “The Zero Carbon Australia 2020 Stationary Energy Plan” by Beyond Zero Emissions

Could you please answer some questions about how the cost estimate of $370 billion has been derived. Given that modern society demands a power supply with almost 100% reliability the following questions arise:

1. What are your assumptions regarding what generating stations will be providing our 25GW average power and 33GW peak power (2007 figures for NEM) in July under the most unfavourable weather conditions? The most unfavourable weather conditions might be something like most of the solar power stations covered by cloud, and these conditions prevail for several days. What are the worst conditions you have assumed and where will the power come from under such conditions?

2. If we assume that, say there has been little wind energy and the eastern Australian power stations have been under cloud for several days, and only the two Western Australian solar plants are generating, does that mean that every power station needs to be sized to generate the full 25 or 33 GW of power, or half that amount, etc. If not, then what size does each power station need to be sized at to ensure we have 99.997% reliability of our power supply.

3. Do the transmission lines need to be sized to carry the full power from every power station? For example, would the transmission line from WA to eastern states need to be sized to carry the full 25GW (or 33GW peak) power for the situation where only WA is generating significant power? I realise the situation will not be the absolute extreme, but could you please explain the assumptions and also explain what is the basis for these assumptions.

4. Does your cost estimate fully allow for the cost of infrastructure to support the construction of the solar power stations? For example, what is the cost of getting sufficient water to each site given that a solar thermal plant requires some 6 times as much concrete as a nuclear power plant of the same capacity, so the solar plant needs at least 6 times as much water? Does your cost estimate include the cost of dams, desalination plants, pipes, pump stations to get the water to each power station? Similarly, what is the cost of constructing and maintaining the construction towns, roads and ‘fly-in fly-out’ airports for each town given that the construction workforce will be some 10 times the size of the work force required to build a nuclear power plant of the same capacity?

5. Where will the workforce come from? If we think it will be a huge task to build nuclear power plants at the rate needed to decarbonise, how can we possible provide a 10 times larger work force to build solar plants?

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Peter Lang on the E-W connector I think it might have to earn $450m a year to pay for itself. From Norseman WA to Pt Augusta SA is about 1400 km. At $3m/km that’s $4.2bn. Add $100m converter stations at each end with some junctions or feeders in the middle, possibly with convertors. Apply 10% required rate of return. The unit cost will depend on total electrical flow.

While the economics is dodgy now I believe in 20 years the gas supply situation will be dire in SA, Vic and Tas. The west will have no trouble sending peaking power across. By coincidence it happens to fit in with a Ceduna NPP and some of BZE’s ideas, with Siemens apparently onside.

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Basslink at roughly 300km underwater transmits 500MW either way with limited higher performance. It was sold for $1.2bn including the converter stations which I surmised worked out at (300 X $3m) + (2 X $150m) or similar. Then someone whose name I can’t remember said on this website that above ground HVDC that can transmit 1 GW would cost $3m per km and HVAC would cost $2m.

I suggest by 2030 or so most of the gas fired plant in SA, Vic and Tas won’t have affordable gas. That includes Adelaide’s 1.2 GW Torrens Island baseload station which is Australia’s largest single gas user. A NPP at Ceduna would need 700 MW just for ‘local’ use including Olympic Dam. Whether it should export a surplus is an open question. Thus conceivably SA-Vic-Tas could want 2 GW or more of gas replacement power, both baseload and peaking.

An E-W connector might need to routinely transmit well over 1 GW and sometimes several times that. That probably means that the rest of the system has to be beefed up so the cost of the long stretch is barely a start.

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Building gas fired power stations in WA and transmitting power to eastern states seems almost as nuts as building solar and wind power stations. Surely Australia will get over its anti-nuclear belief before anything like this happens. I hope.

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Peter,
Your calculations on concrete are questionable in various ways. For starters the primary information is based on assumptions, secondly it takes no account of new techniques, thirdly it takes no account of the lives of the various systems. On the life consideration Nuclear plants have a very distinct life time frame due to the consequences of neutron action (a problem also for fusion reactors). CSP on the other hand has an indefinite life which can conceivable stretch into hundreds of years. This angle of attack against renewables is a triviality.

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BilB,

I look forward to you providing some specifics so we can deal with them. It is impossible to discuss general statements like “Your calculations on concrete are questionable in various ways. For starters the primary information is based on assumptions, …”

CST has a design life of 20 to 30 years. Nuclear 40 to 60 years. The Gen ii plants with 40 year design life are now having their lives extended to 60 years. Meanwhile, here are some photos of ‘decommissioned’ solar and wind farms: http://webecoist.com/2009/05/04/10-abandoned-renewable-energy-plants/

I am still waiting for you to provide the basis of your cost estimate of $180 billion for CST to supply Australia’s power, as you undertook on the John Quiggan web site to do. Once you have provided this I’ll be able to explain to you why your belief in CST is based on flawed assumptions.

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BilB, once again,

* what assumptions do you object to? What are your preferred alternative assumptions?
* What new techniques do you refer to? How do they alter the estimates?
* What lifetime do you think should be attributed to nuclear plants?
* What (definite, not indefinite) lifetime do you attribute to a capable CSP system?

Just throwing out unquantified, unargued statements like this is vacuous.

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Just for interest I’ve done a quick calculation of the mass and foot print for energy storage using Vanadium Redox flow cells (VRB). If we assume we need 25GW of power and we need storage for 18 hours per day, and we need this amount of storage for 5 days at every power station, so we have power supply throughout periods of overcast conditions, then the mass, footprint and cost are:

Mass: 290 Mt
Footprint: 180 km^2
Cost: $1,575 billion

Double those figures if we want power supply throughout 10 days of overcast conditions.

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Via Crikey I’ve read Environment Victoria’s proposal to replace the 1600 MW Hazelwood brown coal fired station with 1180 MW of combined cycle gas at 65% capacity and 1500 MW of wind power at 30% capacity

Click to access Exec%20Summary%20Fast-tracking%20Victoria’s%20clean%20energy%20future%20to%20replace%20Hazelwood.pdf

They present an additional scenario with demand management. They claim to reduce Hazelwood’s annual CO2 emissions (elsewhere cited at 17 Mt) by 13.5 Mt, an impressive 80% reduction. Whether or not their calculations are correct I’d make some sobering points
1) the State has other brown coal burners like Yallourn and Loy Yang
2) brown coal evidently costs them 60c a gigajoule ($6 per tonne with 9.8 GJ) whereas gas probably costs $6 a gigajoule
3) Victoria exports gas to South Australia and Tasmania’s gas comes from the Gippsland coast. No new major gas discovery has been made for years.

Therefore I suggest there are some whopping electricity price hikes in the pipeline if Hazelwood is retired. When the current electricity supply contracts run out for the Pt Henry aluminium smelter (ignoring the small Anglesea station) it may no longer be competitive with many of its rivals if it relies on gas power.

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There is another huge hole that has developed in your original paper on the Queenbeyan solar demonstration installation. As you have provided absolutely no specification information on the system there are unanswered questions. One is the efficiency of the panels installed, minor issue. Major issue is the nature of the inverter system. Most people assume that PV systems generate power and then all of that power is converted to electricity for use. Not so. Most commercially available inverters are struggling to be 90% efficient under full load. As the load drops away so does the conversion efficiency, to as little as 40%. Your reporting of the winter energy yields dropping away to near zero troubled me as this should not happen as a result of reduced winter solar strength. So it turns out that the drop in winter energy yields is a result of reduced solar eposure due to cloud cover, poorly arranged panels for the winter period, then compounded by inefficient inverters. You have then taken those extremely distorted figures and magnified the error by applying them to systems that do not convert energy electronically and are not subject to such efficiency losses.

What can I say. Your errors as they are exposed continue to devalue your conclusions exponentially.

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John Newlands,

Good points. There is lots to discuss here. The first one that jumps out at me is: why isn’t Environment Victoria suggesting that Hazelwood be replaced by 100% solar and wind? If they believe solar and wind are viable baseload options, why do they need gas?

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BilB,

Read the cited references if you want to know more about the Queanbeyan plant. It is built and owned by Country Energy and this and another similar one were built as state of the art at the time as part of an RD&D program with research organisations.

Similarly low capacity factor during the most heavily overcast days in winter are experienced on other solar power stations too.

I recognise the worst case scenarion will not be quite as bad in the desert regions. However, what is the worst case scenario? What are the figures? Do you have access to such figures?

When are you going to provide some actual data to back up your assertions. I’ve asked you previously to provide the detailed output readings for CST power stations. You haven’t yet done so. What is the minimum capacity factor experienced during operating hours? If you can’t do any better than make unsubstantiated assertions, your comments are of no value. They are simply your belief.

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Calling something “state of the art” does not make it efficient or even relevent to the final conclusion. There is nothin quantitative about “state of the art”. You can’t even be sure that that is the case without full specification examination. I can understand that a geologist might not think to consider that such specifics are significant. Now what else has been overlooked?

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BilB,

When you can provide some better data than I have used, and your basis of cost estimate, we’ll have something worth discussing. Until then, there is no point in continually writing unsubstantiated assertions. I think you are trying desperately to justify and defend your belief, and you realise, but can’t admit, you’ve been propogating an irrational belief and misleading all your customers. That is why you are trying so desperately, but without anything to support your argument.

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Peter,

So far I have identified systematic errors in you analysis that devalue you conclusions to 10% relevence to the extended conclusions that you have drawn, which are then fall further in to uncertainty by you admission that you take worst case data at every opportunity. But I am pretty sure that there are more errors here, but it might require a reverse error corrected simulation to find them.

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BilB,

You haven’t identified any errors at all. You are simply making unsubstantiated assertions.

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