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‘Zero Carbon Australia – Stationary Energy Plan’ – Critique

‘Zero Carbon Australia – Stationary Energy Plan’ – Critique

Download the printable PDF here

[An addendum on wind farm and solar construction rates, by Dave Burraston]

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Edit: Here are some media-suitable ‘sound bytes’ from the critique, prepared by Martin. Obviously, please read the whole critique below to understand the context:

  • They assume we will be using less than half the energy by 2020 than we do today without any damage to the economy. This flies in the face of 200 years of history.
  • They have seriously underestimated the cost and timescale required to implement the plan.
  • For $8 a week extra on your electricity bill, you will give up all domestic plane travel, all your bus trips and you must all take half your journeys by electrified trains.
  • They even suggest that all you two car families cut back to just one electric car.
  • You better stock up on candles because you can certainly expect more blackouts and brownouts.
  • Addressing these drawbacks could add over $50 a week to your power bill not the $8 promised by BZE. That’s over $2,600 per year for the average household.

By Martin Nicholson and Peter Lang, August 2010

1. Summary

This document provides a critique of the ‘Zero Carbon Australia – Stationary Energy Plan’ [1] (referred to as the Plan in this document) prepared by Beyond Zero Emissions (BZE). We looked at the total electricity demand required, the total electricity generating capacity needed to meet that demand and the total capital cost of installing that generating capacity. We did not review the suitability of the technologies proposed.  We briefly considered the timeline for installing the capacity by 2020 but have not critiqued this part of the Plan in detail.

In reviewing the total energy demand, we referred to the assumptions made in the Plan and compared them to the Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics (ABARE) report on Australian energy projections to 2029-30 [2]. The key Plan assumptions we questioned were the use of 2008 energy data as the benchmark for 2020, the transfer of close to half the current road transport to electrified rail and transfer of all domestic air travel and shipping to rail which could have a devastating impact on the economy. In the Plan, total energy demand was reduced by 63% below ABARE’s assessment. We recalculated the energy demand for 2020 without these particular assumptions. Our recalculation increased electricity demand by 38% above the demand proposed in the Plan.

We next turned our minds to the amount of generator capacity needed to meet our recalculated electricity demand. We assumed that the existing electricity network customers would require the same level of network reliability as now. At best the solar thermal plants would have the same reliability and availability of the existing coal fleet so the network operators would at least require a similar proportion of reserve margin capacity as in the existing networks. We kept the same proportion of wind energy as in the Plan (40%) and recalculated the total capacity needed to maintain the reserve margin. The total installed capacity needed increased by 65% above the proposed capacity in the Plan.

The Plan misleadingly states that it relies only on existing, proven, commercially available and costed technologies. The proposed products to be used in the Plan fail these tests. So to assess the total capital cost of installing the generating capacity needed, we reviewed some current costs for both wind farms and solar thermal plants. We also reviewed ABARE’s expectation on future cost reductions. We considered that current costs were the most likely to apply to early installed plants and  that ABARE’s future cost reductions were more likely to apply than the reductions used in the Plan. Applying these costs to the increased installed capacity increased the total capital cost almost 5 fold and increases the wholesale cost of electricity by at least five times and probably 10 times. This will have a significant impact on consumer electricity prices.

We consider the Plan’s Implementation Timeline as unrealistic.  We doubt any solar thermal plants, of the size and availability proposed in the plan, will be on line before 2020.  We expect only demonstration plants will be built until there is confidence that they can become economically viable. Also, it is common for such long term projections to have high failure rates.

2. 2020 Electricity Demand

BZE make a number of assumptions in assessing the electricity demand used to calculate the generating capacity needed by 2020. In summary these are:

  1. 2008 is used as the benchmark year for the analysis. BZE defend this by saying “ZCA2020 intends to decouple energy use from GDP growth. Energy use per capita is used as a reference, taking into account medium-range population growth.”.
  2. Various industrial energy demands in 2020 are reduced including gas used in the export of LNG, energy used in coal mining, parasitic electricity losses, off-grid electricity and coal for smelting.
  3. Nearly all transport is electrified and a substantial proportion of the travel kms are moved from road to electrified rail including 50% of urban passenger and truck kms and all bus kms. All domestic air and shipping is also moved to electric rail.
  4. All fossil fuels energy, both domestic and industrial, is replaced with electricity.
  5. Demand is reduced through energy efficiency and the use of onsite solar energy.

The net effect of these assumptions is to reduce the 2020 total energy by 58% below the 2008 benchmark and 63% below the ABARE estimate for 2020. The total electricity required in 2020 to service demand and achieve these reductions is 325 TWh. This is the equivalent of an average generating capacity of 37 GW over the year.

All of these assumptions are challenging and some are probably unrealistic or politically unacceptable. To address these concerns, we have adjusted the assumptions and recalculated the energy estimates shown in Table A1.3 of the Plan.

The revised assumptions are as follows:

  1. Comparing Australia’s energy use per capita with Northern Europe ignores the significant differences in population density and climate between the two regions. To address this, we have used ABARE’s forecast for 2020 as the benchmark year for our analysis. The ABARE forecast assumes energy efficiency improvement of 0.5 per cent a year in non energy-intensive end use sectors and 0.2 per cent a year in energy intensive industries.
  2. The export of LNG will continue. Much of the world may not wish to, or be able to, emulate this plan and the demand for gas as an energy source will continue for several decades. The other demand reductions shown in BZE assumption 2 above are included.
  3. A substantial modal shift in transport to rail is unlikely to be politically acceptable, particularly domestic aviation and bus travel. Domestic aviation and shipping will continue to use fossil fuels or bio-equivalents. In our analysis, nearly all road transport is electrified but without a reduction in distance travelled. Though this transport electrification is unlikely to be achieved by 2020, it is a realistic long term goal so has been included in the revised calculations. ABARE energy data are for final energy consumption so a tank/battery to wheel efficiency comparison should be made. This is considered to be a 3:1 energy reduction [3] not 5:1 as identified in the Plan.
  4. All fossil fuels energy is replaced with electricity as per the Plan.
  5. Demand is reduced through energy efficiency and the use of onsite solar energy as per the Plan but discounted by the energy efficiency already included in the ABARE data identified in 1 above.

These assumptions and recalculations are based on information provided in Appendix 1 of the Plan. Each SET column shown in Table 1 below are defined in Appendix 1. Recalculations are based on data provided in Appendix 1. ABARE provided data for 2008 and 2030 only so 2020 is our estimate based on the ABARE figures.

The net effect of these revised assumptions is shown in Table 1 which is a rework of Table A1.3 in Appendix 1 of the Plan. The total electricity required in 2020 to service the revised demand and achieve the energy reductions is 449 TWh or 38% more than the ZCA2020 Plan estimate of 325 TWh.

3. Total Capacity Needed

A number of assumptions have been made by BZE in assessing the generating capacity needed to supply the electricity demand in 2020. These can be summaries as follows:

  1. The Plan relies on 50 GW of wind and 42.5 GW of concentrating solar thermal (CST) alone to meet 98% of the projected electricity demand of 325 TWh/yr. In addition, the combination of hydro and biomass generation as backup at the CST sites is expected to meet the remaining 2% of total demand, covering the few occasions where periods of low wind and extended low sun coincide.
  2. In the Plan system design the extra generating capacity needed to meet peak demand is reduced relative to current requirements. The electrification of heating, along with an active load management system, is assumed to defer heating and cooling load to smooth out peaks in demand resulting in a significant reduction in the overall installed capacity required to meet peak demand.
  3. In the Plan, negawatts are achieved through energy efficiency programs which lower both overall energy demand and peak electricity demand as well as by time-shifting loads using active load management. Negawatts can be conceptually understood as real decreases in necessary installed generating capacity, due to real reductions in overall peak electricity demand.
  4. The current annual energy demand in the Plan is considered to be 213 TWh which can be converted to an average power figure of 24 GW. BZE assumes that the current installed capacity to meet maximum demand is 45 GW. The difference (21 GW) is then considered power for meeting the demand for intermediate and peak loads only. The peak load in 2020 is assumed to be equal to the average of 37 GW plus the 21 GW for intermediate and peak loads. This is then reduced by a 3 GW allowance for ‘Negawatt’ to give an overall maximum demand of 55 GW.
  5. In the worst case scenario modelled in the Plan of low wind and low sun, there is a minimum of 55 GW of reliable capacity. This is based on a projected 15%, or 7.5 GW, of wind power always being available and the 42.5 GW of solar thermal turbine capacity also always being available with up to 15 GW of this turbine capacity backed up by biomass heaters. The 5 GW of existing hydro capacity is also always available.

The key issues in these assumptions are that the maximum (peak) demand is 55GW and that the proposed installed capacity can deliver a minimum of 55GW at any time. We will deal with each of these issues separately.

3.1. Recalculation of peak demand

The ZCA2020 Plan proposes a single National Grid comprising the existing NEM, SWIS and NWIS grids. The current installed capacity and loads in the three regions are shown in Table 2. An accurate assessment of peak demand – not average demand – is critical for assessing the total installed capacity needed.

Reliability in each network is maintained by additional available capacity over and above the expected peak demand. This is to cover for planned or unexpected loss of generating capacity either through planned maintenance or unplanned breakdown. This additional capacity is often referred to as the ‘reserve margin’.

The current reserve margin in each network is approximately 33% higher than the actual peak load. Note also that the actual total installed capacity is 53 GW and average power is 26 GW across the three networks. These are both higher than suggested by BZE in assumption 4 above.

The anticipated electricity demand in 2020 from Table 1 is 449 TWh. Assuming no change in current peak demand we can expect the pro rata peak in 2020 would be 78.7 GW (39.7 x 449/227). If we apply the 3 GW negawatt reduction discussed in assumption 4, peak demand will become 75.7 GW as shown in Table 3.

3.2. Recalculation of required capacity to reliably meet demand

The Plan insists that the combination of wind power and solar thermal with storage can deliver continuous supply (baseload). The only way to accurately assess this and the capacity required to meed the performance demands on the network is to do a full loss of load probability (LOLP) analysis. This does not appear to have been done in the ZCA2020 Plan, or at least it was not discussed as such in the report.

It is also beyond the scope of this critique to perform an LOLP analysis. A reasonable proxy is to apply the reserve margin requirements currently in the network. To maintain reliability, all three network regions have a reserve margin of 33% above the anticipated peak demand.

The size of the reserve margin is, among other things, related to the reliability of the generators in the network. In the current networks the predominant generators are conventional fossil fuel plants supplying over 90% of the energy.

In the Plan, the predominant plants are solar thermal with biomass backup supplying just under 60% of the energy. The Plan states that “The solar thermal power towers specified in the Plan will be able to operate at 70-75% annual capacity factor, similar to conventional fossil fuel plants.” The remainder of the energy mostly comes from wind powered generators. It would therefore seem likely that the network operators would continue, at a minimum, to require a 33% reserve margin to maintain the current levels of network reliability. The reserve margin may well be higher given the proportion of wind power and the use of relatively new solar thermal/biomass hybrid plants.

Table 3 shows the anticipated peak demand and total capacity needed to meet the 2020 demand calculated in section 2.

3.3. Estimate of the required wind and solar capacity

As close as possible we have kept the percentage of energy coming from wind and solar the same as in the Plan. This means that roughly 40% of the energy will come from wind and 60% will come from solar thermal plants with sufficient biomass capacity and sufficient fuel supply system to back-up for when there is insufficient energy in storage.

40% of the 449 TWh demand required by 2020 shown in section 2 will require 68 GW of wind. This is 36% higher than the 50 GW of wind used in the Plan.

The Plan assumed that 15% of wind power would always be available (assumption 5 above). This is the capacity credit allocated when assessing network reliability. Dispatchable generators like fossil fuel plants typically have a capacity credit of 99%. [4]

For the purpose of this estimate, we have assumed that the solar plants will have sufficient biomass capacity and reliability to be given a capacity credit of 99%. This may require a higher availability of biomass at the solar sites than has been included in the Plan. Without an LOLP we are not able to make that assessment.

Table 4 shows the amount of wind and solar needed to satisfy the network requirement for a total capacity of 101 GW calculated in 3.2 and shown in Table 3. The solar supply and biomass backup will need to be more than doubled from the present 42.5 GW to 87 GW.

4. Capital Costs

The Plan makes an estimate of the capital costs for the generators and the transmission lines. The Plan states that it “relies only on existing, proven, commercially available and costed technologies”. This is misleading. Although it is true that wind and solar thermal generators have been used commercially for a number of years, the particular products and product size suggested in the Plan are not yet available and caution is needed when estimating future costs for these products. Further, the Plan also assumes that baseload solar thermal is available today when the International Energy Agency does not expecting competitive baseload CSP before 2025. [5]

In this analysis we have compared the costs proposed in the Plan with known costs for solar and wind plants, together with ABARE’s suggested likely cost reductions over time.

4.1. Wind costs

According to ABARE [6, 7], current costs for wind farms in Australia are around $2.9 million/MW. In 2009 the costs were $2.3 million/MW – see Table 5.

The following assumptions have been made by BZE in estimating the cost of wind farms:

  1. The Plan involves a large scale roll out of wind turbines, that will require a ramp up in production rate, which will help to reduce wind farm capital costs and bring Australian costs into line with the world (European) markets.
  2. The 2010 forecast capital cost of onshore wind is approximately €1,200/kW (2006 prices) or $2,200/kW (current prices). By 2015 the European capital cost of onshore wind is estimated to be around €900/kW (2006 prices) (or $1,650 in current prices).
  3. It is expected that Australian wind turbine costs in 2011 will reduce to the current European costs of $2.2 million/MW. For the first 5 years of the Plan, the capital costs of wind turbines are expected to transition from the current European costs to the forecast 2015 European amount — $1.65 million/MW.
  4. In the final five years the capital costs are expected to drop to approximately $1.25 million/MW in Australia.

Wind turbines are not new technology and this would not normally suggest such significant falls in future costs. The 7.5 MW Enercon E126 turbine proposed is significantly larger than any currently installed on-shore commercial turbine and is still being developed. No firm costs for such a turbine are yet available. It seems very optimistic to suggest that the cost of these turbines will almost halve over the next decade. That projection is not supported by ABARE, which forecasts2 a reduction in the cost of wind power of 21% from 2015 to 2030. This is a simple average reduction of 1.5% per year.

Given the current cost of turbines in Australia ($2.9 million/MW) and accepting some economy of scale both in turbine size and volume purchased it might seem more prudent to assume the cost will fall from the current cost of $2.9 million/MW to $2.5 million/MW over the decade in line with ABARE’s forecast.

4.2. Solar costs

The solar plant proposed by the ZCA2020 Plan is a solar thermal tower with 17 hours molten salt energy storage. The proposed 220 MW plant is 13 times larger than any existing solar tower system. As with the wind proposal, no firm costs for such a large sized plant are yet available.

We have prepared an analysis of two solar thermal tower projects of varying sizes and using molten salt with varying energy storage sizes. These are plants where the capital cost could be identified and shown in Table 6. All costs are converted to 2010 A$.

Part of the variation in cost per MW is related to the hours of storage. The size of the solar field has to be increased to support more hours of storage as does the size of the storage tanks. According to the Plan (p140), 80% of the cost of a solar tower system using molten salt storage comes from the solar field and the storage system.  Scaling up the storage will increase the cost per MW. These costs have been adjusted in Table 6 to 17 hours storage as proposed in the Plan.

The Plan (p61) has applied the following pricing which falls as more solar plants are installed:

  1. The first 1,000 MW is priced at a similar price to SolarReserve’s Tonopah project at $10.5 million/MW.
  2. The next 1,600 MW is priced slightly cheaper at $9.0 million/MW.
  3. The next 2,400 MW is priced at Sargent & Lundy’ conservative mid-term estimate for the Solar 100 module which is $6.5 million/MW.
  4. The next 3,700 MW is priced at Sargent & Lundy Solar 200 module price of $5.3 million/MW.
  5. The remaining 33,800 MW is priced at $115 billion or $3.4 million/MW.

The Tonopah project is treated as a First-Of-A-Kind (FOAK) plant. Unfortunately the Tonopah plant has only 10 hours of storage [8] not 17 hours as required by the Plan. Grossing up the $10.5 million/MW from 10 hours to 17 hours based on the additional materials needed makes the cost $16.4 million/MW. For comparison, the Gemasolar plant shown in Table 6 has a scaled up cost of $25.7 million/MW.

ABARE2 forecasts a reduction in the cost of solar thermal with storage of 34% from 2015 to 2030. This is a simple average reduction of 2% per year. It might seem more prudent to assume the price will fall in line with ABARE’s assessment which will lower the price from $16.4 million/MW to $13.7 million/MW over the decade.

4.3. Assessment of generator capital costs based on revised capacity

In 3.3 we estimated the needed capacity to meet reliability standards in the electricity networks. From Table 4 the wind capacity needed was 68 GW and solar thermal plant capacity was 87 GW.

In this section we take the construction timelines suggested in the Plan (p57, p67) and gross them up to meet the capacity figures above. We then apply the prices calculated in 4.1 and 4.2 to calculate the revised total capital cost.

Table 7 and Table 8 apply a construction schedule as close as possible to the schedules provided in Table 3.7 and Table 3.14 of the Plan. The price each year is assumed to fall uniformly over the 10 years. We recognise this is not what would happen in practice but the end result would not vary greatly.

The Plan’s projected capital cost of wind = $72 billion.

The Plan’s projected capital cost of CST = $175 billion.

Because the required capacity for wind is 36% higher in this analysis than in the Plan and the capacity for solar is 105% higher, there is significant increase in capital cost over the Plan. This is particularly so for the solar component as the average cost per MW over the 10 years has increased from the BZE assessment of $4.1 million to $14.6 million. This a 3.6 times increase in average capital cost.

4.4. Assessment of the revised total investment cost

As the total installed capacity has increased then both the transmission system and biomass supply will also need to be increased. For the purpose of this assessment, the biomass is assumed to increase pro rata with the increase in solar thermal capacity. The transmission is assumed to increase pro rata with the total installed capacity. The actual increases could only be properly assessed with a full LOLP analysis.

The Plan assumes that the biomass fuel will be transported from the biomass pelletising plants, which are located in the wheat growing areas, to the solar thermal power plants by electrified railway lines.  It seems the Plan does not include the cost of these.  We have made an allowance of $54 billion for the capital cost of the electrified rail system for the biomass fuel handling logistics.  This assumes 300km average rail line distance per solar power site, for 12 sites at $15 million/km of electrified rail line.  This is included in our revised total investment cost shown in Table 9.

4.5. Uncertainty in the capital cost estimates

Capital costs for this Plan are highly uncertain.  None of the proposed generator types has ever been built.  Previous estimates for wind power and solar power have often proved to be gross underestimates. Our estimates include projections of cost reductions due to learning rates as does the Plan.  However, there is evidence that real costs have been increasing for decades so the learning rate reductions have to be considered uncertain.

The Plan calls for electrified rail lines to run from the pelleting plants in the wheat growing areas to the solar power stations but the capital cost for lines was not included.  We have included an estimate for this as discussed in 4.4.

There is uncertainty on the downside due to potential technological break-throughs which might make the learning curve rates forecast by various sources: Sargent and Lundy, NEEDS, DOE, IEA and ABARE achievable.  BZE projects a cost reduction of some 50% for solar and wind over the decade.  We will consider this to be the downside uncertainty.

There are several uncertainties on the upside:

  1. 1. A qualified estimator will state that the uncertainty on the upper end is as high as 100% for a conceptual estimate involving a particular design using mature technology for a particular site. The Plan and our estimates are for a concept that does not involve mature technology, without specific site surveys and without a system design for a totally redesigned electricity system.
  2. Previous estimates for solar thermal plants over the past two decades have often underestimated the cost of the actual plants.  For example, the estimated cost of Solar Tres / Gemasolar increased by 260% between 2005 and 2009 (when construction began).
  3. 3. A loss of load probability (LOLP) study would be essential to accurately estimate the generating capacity and transmission network requirements before this Plan was executed.
  4. The wind power contribution to reliability is based on an assumed firm capacity of 15%.  Many consider this highly optimistic.  Should the LOLP study suggest a significantly lower firm wind capacity, then much more solar thermal and biomass capacity would be required, increasing the total capital cost.
  5. Some consider that almost none of our hydro resource could be used in the way assumed in the Plan to back up for low sun and low wind periods.  If this proved to be the case then more solar and biomass capacity would be required.
  6. 6. All existing CST pilot plants have been built in areas that are relatively close to the necessary infrastructure such as road, water, gas mains and a work force.  This will not be the case for most of the 12 sites proposed for Australia.

In Table 9 , we have used a downside uncertainty of 50% and an upside uncertainty of 260% for solar plants and 200% for the other components.

5. Electricity Costs

The wholesale electricity cost, the price paid to the generator, makes up between 30% to 50% of retail electricity prices so any significant increase in the wholesale cost will impact consumer electricity prices. The Plan claims that wholesale prices will rise from the present $55/MWh to $120/MWh after  2020 (p122).

Table 10 shows estimates for the cost of electricity from solar thermal plants and wind farms for different years. It is clear that the Plan estimate for solar is significantly less than the other estimates. This would suggest a significantly lower capital cost for solar in the Plan than anticipated by these other assessments. The Plan does not offer an electricity cost for wind farms.

Based on the ABARE electricity cost estimates shown in Table 10. for solar thermal and wind, if the ratio of energy generated is 60% solar and 40% wind then the wholesale electricity price would need to be, at a minimum, $270/MWh by 2020 to cover the cost of generation.

However this is not a total system cost.  The wholesale cost of electricity would be about $500/MWh based on the capital cost of $1,709 billion, the supply of 443 TWh/a, a lifetime of 30 years and real interest rate of 10% pa.

If the capital cost is at the low end of the range, $885 billion, the electricity cost would be about $270/MWh.  If the capital cost is at the high end of the range, the electricity cost would be about $1200/MWh.

The $500/MWh cost is over 4 times the cost proposed in the Plan and nearly 10 times the current cost of electricity.  The low end of the estimate, $270/MWh, is more than twice the estimate proposed by the Plan and 5 times the current cost of electricity.  The high end of the range is over 10 times the cost proposed in the Plan and over 20 times the current cost of electricity.

6. Implementation Timeline

The Plan is not economically viable; therefore it will not be built to the timeline envisaged in the plan. As an example of how unrealistic the timeline is, the Plan assumes 1000 MW of CST will be under construction in 2011.   This is clearly impossible.  The first plant with 100MW peak capacity and just 10 hours of storage won’t be on-line in the USA until 2013 at the earliest.  It could be years before Australia can begin building plants with 17 hours of storage.

Trying to schedule the proposed build is making a category error. It is unlikely that any project manager would touch it. The project is simply not scoped.

We expect only demonstration plants will be built until there is confidence that they can become economically viable.  We doubt any solar thermal plants, of the size and availability proposed in the plan, will be on line before 2020. .

7. Conclusions

We have reviewed the “Zero Carbon Australia – Stationary Energy Plan” by Beyond Zero Emissions.  We have evaluated and revised the assumptions and cost estimates. We conclude:

  • The ZCA2020 Stationary Energy Plan has significantly underestimated the cost and timescale required to implement such a plan.
  • Our revised cost estimate is nearly five times higher than the estimate in the Plan: $1,709 billion compared to $370 billion.  The cost estimates are highly uncertain with a range of $855 billion to $4,191 billion for our estimate.
  • The wholesale electricity costs would increase nearly 10 times above current costs to $500/MWh, not the $120/MWh claimed in the Plan.
  • The total electricity demand in 2020 is expected to be 44% higher than proposed: 449 TWh compared to the 325 TWh presented in the Plan.
  • The Plan has inadequate reserve capacity margin to ensure network reliability remains at current levels. The total installed capacity needs to be increased by 65% above the proposed capacity in the Plan to 160 GW compared to the 97 GW used in the Plan.
  • The Plan’s implementation timeline is unrealistic.  We doubt any solar thermal plants, of the size and availability proposed in the plan, will be on line before 2020.  We expect only demonstration plants will be built until there is confidence that they can be economically viable.
  • The Plan relies on many unsupported assumptions, which we believe are invalid; two of the most important are:
    1. A quote in the Executive Summary “The Plan relies only on existing, proven, commercially available and costed technologies.”
    2. Solar thermal power stations with the performance characteristics and availability of baseload power stations exist now or will in the near future.

8. References

[1] Australian Sustainable Energy – Zero Carbon Australia – Stationary Energy Plan

http://media.beyondzeroemissions.org/ZCA2020_Stationary_Energy_Report_v1.pdf

[2] ABARE Australian energy projections to 2029-30

http://www.abare.gov.au/publications_html/energy/energy_10/energy_proj.pdf

[3] European Commission – Mobility and Transport

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/urban/vehicles/road/electric_en.htm

[4] Doherty et al – Establishing the Role That Wind Generation May Have in Future Generation Portfolios IEEE TRANSACTIONS ON POWER SYSTEMS, VOL. 21, NO. 3, AUGUST 2006

[5] IEA – Technology Roadmap Concentrating Solar Power

http://www.iea.org/papers/2010/csp_roadmap.pdf

[6] ABARE’s list of major electricity generation projects – April 2009

http://www.abare.gov.au/publications_html/energy/energy_09/EG09_AprListing.xls

[7] ABARE’s list of major electricity generation projects – April 2010

http://www.abare.gov.au/publications_html/energy/energy_10/EG10_AprListing.xls

[8] SOLARRESERVE GETS GREEN LIGHT ON NEVADA SOLAR THERMAL PROJECT July 2010

http://solarreserve.com/news/SolarReservePUCNApprovalAnnouncement072810.pdf

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By Barry Brook

Barry Brook is an ARC Laureate Fellow and Chair of Environmental Sustainability at the University of Tasmania. He researches global change, ecology and energy.

363 replies on “‘Zero Carbon Australia – Stationary Energy Plan’ – Critique”

Neil Howes and Stephen Gloor,

I haven’t had time to read your posts today, but from yesterday it seems you still believe that our hydro resources could be diverted/reassigned to be used to firm wind and solar power, as assumed by the ZCA report.

I have explained many times why this is not possible, but it seems you have both ignored the substance of what I’ve attempted to explain.

To attempt to resolve this ongoing issue on BNC, can I suggest you offer an article to Barry explaing your position. Then we can debate it. To be of interest to me it would need to explain:

1. the cost of the wind and hydro system for providing power of the same availability and quality as baseload power stations;

2. the capital cost per kW of the system, the cost of average power ($/kWy/y);

3. the levelisedf cost of electricity;

4. how it would be financed (see the 1st Reviewer’s comments on the pumed hydro article to understand what I mean – point 8 here https://bravenewclimate.com/2010/04/05/pumped-hydro-system-cost/ );

5. What is the impact of your proposal on the existing hydro system – e.g., storage capacity reserved for storing wind and solar energy and therefor not available to store for long term hydro generation, extra storage required in upper or lower reservoirs, etc. You, as the advocates, need to work out the consequences, not leave it to us to point them out to you;

6. All the consequences of being dependent on, and attempting to run, all our hydro resources at full capacity for several days at a time (as ZCA proposes).

7. Many more, but you can work them out. You are the proponents, it is your job as engineers to work it all out and propose a feasible, costed system with all bases covered.

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Neil Howes,

Peter Lang is claiming wind power cannot be used to power pumped hydro because pumped hydro needs hours of steady power.

That is just one of a number of reasons why it is not feasible, nor economically viable, to divert our very limited hydro resources to firming intermittent renewable energy generators like wind and solar.

If you are not being intentionally missleading, yo might demonstrate good faith by summarising here all the reasons I told you, rather than just pick out one of them and imply that it is THE single reason. Or better still, include them all and address them in the article you and Stephen Gloor prepare to explain your proposal.

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@Lang: you describe your enemies on this thread as “computer jocks and passionate RE advocates based on belief” in the face of “sound engineering judgement and experience”. So you will agree that if support of nuclear is like support of basic laws of physics, there should be no engineer, especially an atomic one with decades of experience, who became an RE advocate. But we have the case of Klaus Traube, b. 1928, who is well-known in Germany. You may consult the entry in Wiki.

His CV:

graduate in mech. eng. TU Munich, held academic position there during his PhD.

1959-1976: worked in the German and US atomic power sector. Positions held: director of atomic reactors at AEG; CEO of Interatom, responsible for building the Kalkar fast breeder.

Prior, he had been with General Dynamics in San Diego.

TMI seems to been the final straw for him in his gradual move away from nuclear.

In the 1990s he then held a managerial function in the German RE sector.

Persons of your persuasion are given to smearing such “renegade” people as having “personal problems” or alleging that “one swallow doesn’t make a summer.” Traube’s current age would also predispose you to allege senility of course.

Nevertheless, Traube’s concern (writing in German in 2006 as the CEO of a firm that had been building one at Kalkar)

– that fast breeders are too difficult to build, and
– that the waste/spent fuel problem is insoluble

is coming from somebody whose atomic industry managerial experience is invariably deeply respected by persons such as yourself, all other things being equal.

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Neil Howes, on 18 August 2010 at 14.26 — The French are capable of pumpin/generating from pumped hydro in 15 minute blocks. There is a graph somewhere on the web.

Naturally, most of the pumping happens at night bu7t there are a few blocks around lunch time when balance is best preserved by a bit of pumping.

Of course, the Franch are load balancing against about 90% nuclear…

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Neil Howes and Stephen Gloor seem to lack a sense of perspective or proportion. They want to spend all their time talking about totally uneconomic technologies (wind and solar) that continually under-achieve expectations – they now contribute only a few percent of our electricity generation after decades of massive subsidies and favourable treatment. Yet Neil and Stephen want to spend all their time talking about these uneconomic, unreliable technologies rather than talk about the technologies that could comprise some 80% of our electricity generation or more – the only technology that can give us genuine clean electricity generation.

All Neil’s and Stephen’s posts are side tracks and diversions. If they are not prepared to put their case in an article, where all their arguments are assembled together in one place so we can critique it, I can’t see much point in continually answering their repetitive nonsense.

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John Bennetts
To the already very high cost of wind power must be added the capital and maintenance costs of the backup
I totally agree on this point, we presently have >40GW of thermal power generation and more NG is being built. The issue is what capacity factor they have to operate at as this is the major contributor to CO2 emissions. Whats a better outcome several coal-fired plants on standby 2 months of the year or operating as at present 12 months per year? or better still OCGT/CCGT running at 10% capacity factor or at 35% capacity?

What the public will not accept is blackouts and brownouts due to there being inadequate available power generating capacity,
This is not true, we have had wide-spread blackout in last 10 years, the Australian public will not accept blackouts every few days or weeks, but this occurs now in many parts of the world using FF power.
To build a national grid which is capable of carrying everything from anywhere to anywhere else is simply beyond my comprehension.
Now you are using the same exaggeration that Peter Lang uses about the needs of a national grid. The existing NEM grid doesnt have the capability to “move >40GW from anywhere to anywhere”, no grid does or ever has to do that. Specifically for wind it would be moving “surplus to local demand” during local high wind events, perhaps 5-10% of total capacity to regions of low wind, 1000-2000km distant. Any FF back-up would be located where it is today using present grid, but a small part of that back-up capacity would be moved to a specific low wind region to meet local regional demand, just as occurs now when we have a heat wave or a cold snap in one state. The critical link is joining WA with NEM grid, a similar distance that hydro power moves from sub-arctic Canada to Canadian and US cities via HVDC.
As to nuclear power stations not being able to have a construction start within 10 years, this is yet to be demonstrated to be true.
I would think construction would start well before 10 years, I was saying first power for the first few reactors built in Australia would take at least 10 years after a political decision to start a major nuclear building program. Will the power generating industry finance this as it is doing for NG and wind or will it require a major government funding?
To do this we need the vision of the Snowy Mountains Project and the the voters’ support.
Meanwhile while we are waiting ( beyond 2020) we can have another 5-10GW of wind capacity built without a Snowy Mountains vision and we already have political support and REC targets to 2020.
All for vision to build nuclear and to build a national grid and to build a lot more pumped hydro all of which will be valuable even if nuclear becomes the dominant source of power by 2040 or 2050.

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Peter Lang – “Neil Howes and Stephen Gloor seem to lack a sense of perspective or proportion. They want to spend all their time”

That’s you M.O isn’t it Peter. When you are wrong you never admit it just insult the people calling you on your bogus assumptions that gold-plate your critique of the BZE plan. Rather than accepting the valid points and amending your critique to make it better you bluster and bully in the hope that we will go away and leave you with the solution you.

The BZE plan was compiles by qualified people and represents exactly what I would be putting up as you shrilly demand. You have responded to this with a dodgy critique and refused to acknowledge any problems with it. I cannot speak for Neil however for my part have offered reasonable compromises in an attempt to find out if you are a reasonable person or just a nuclear blowhard where it’s my way or the highway.

The point is Peter you have demonstrated over and over again that you are not responsive to new or different ideas and just try to bully your way over objections. I also question your expertise as I posted the paper describing how the MRLs of AEMO were set. Yet you were still insisting that “we need a LOLP” done. However as long as the minimum USE standard of 0.002 is met then the MRLs in the BZE should be entirely adequate. If you understood this you would have calculated a slightly larger MRL based on the ones for 2012 and then added this. Rather you claim that supply is 33% over demand for reliability reasons whereas all states except SA have surpluses over MRL.

I for one would be far more willing to exchange views if I thought it would do any good. As you are not here to learn as you apparently know everything there is to know about the energy industry there is very little point posting anything here. Mind you if you don’t include the same gold plating in you nuclear plan for Australia as you did for this critique I may have serving to say. Bye for now.

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Whats a better outcome several coal-fired plants on standby 2 months of the year or operating as at present 12 months per year? or better still OCGT/CCGT running at 10% capacity factor or at 35% capacity?

What’s this? Coal stations are never shut down due to the wind being up. They’re just not that responsive. So there’s no point pretending that wind is ever going to cut back on coal power. CCGT is in the same boat, it’s just not responsive enough to shadow wind variability. That just leaves OCGT, the more expensive option.

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Couple of corrections – doing this from your phone in the train is difficult.

the solution you.
should be “solution you like.”

Compiles should be compiled

Nuclear blowhard should be nuclear advocate (sorry Barry)

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And yet another Climate Spectator article on solar thermal. This time by the BrightSource Australia director Andrew Dyer :

http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/time-get-serious-about-solar

There is a classic line in the article which shows the ZCA solar thermal Implementation Timeline is fiction :

“Given that it takes five or more years to develop and complete a project, and none have yet been committed, there is a lot of work to do.”

According to the ZCA report (Table 2.3 Energy production timetable on p36) they claim that solar thermal can be implemented in 2 to 5 years.

I will also repeat what Dyer states in the front quote comments in the ZCA report, 3rd page in form the start of the PDF :

“With far greater efficiencies, higher capacity factors, lower capital
costs and the ability to operate the plant in hybrid mode and/or with storage…”

Note that hybrid mode is where there is a natural gas feed to the solar thermal plant… I covered this aspect of solar thermal gas hybridisation in many comments in the earlier thread ->

BNC community analysis of the Zero Carbon Australia 2020 Report

i.e. many of those solar thermal plants that are constantly trumpeted around rely on natural gas at up to 15%.

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bryen and others,

Climate Spectator is a clarly renewable energy advocacy site. It has nothing to do with climate or cutting CO2 emissions, it is sim,ply a pipeline to propogate the RE beliefs of Giles Parkinson.

So the best thing to do it to pose short replies asking questiosn and pointing out the most important flaws in wah they are saying.

It is frustrating that this is where we are at, but we’ve been in this same position for 40 odd years. Marketing spin trumps substance everytime and that is what is happening with ZCA2020 Plan and the RE advocacy.

I am surprised that Alan Kohler allows it on his otherwise excellent site. Either he doesn’t realise what is going on or doesn’t believe it will damage his credibility.

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Stephen Gloor,

You talk a lot of rot. I do admit mistakes when I make them. But I’ve never seen you ever do so. I’ve explained that the hydro is not available to be used for backing up wind and solar. You and Neil simply don’t want to accept that, and you keep misquoting, quoting bits out of context, avoiding the main points, adn using diversion tactics.

I’ve explaiend that I expect, and explained why, that an LOLP analysis would show that wind and solar with biomass back up, as proposed in the ZCA plan, cannot provide supply reliability no matter how high the reserve capacity margin. So it doesn’t matter what single component you want to pull out and argue about, it is simply not feasible to provide our supply at any cost. You want to argue about the reserve capacity margin: I say waht we used is a very conservative (ie low end) value (favourable to the ZCA2020 Plan).

Why don’t you and Neil accept the suggestion I posted here:

‘Zero Carbon Australia – Stationary Energy Plan’ – Critique

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@Neil Howes, on 19 August 2010 at 8.51:

You made several points, which are more or less seriously put, though indicating minimal understanding of the operational constraints of coal fired and CCGT power.

Coal fired power stations have, for years, been “two shifted” in the UK. This means running them under load during the morning and/or evening peaks, then either idling them of shutting them down. This cyclic heating and cooling of boiler and turbine components is inefficient thermally but also brings with it substantial damage due to thermal cycling. However, it is possible, at a cost. I don’t envisage coal fired generating capacity being stood down for months and then returning reliably to service… they are too complex for that to be advisable and the diurnal energy demand curve would not suit this mode of operation. It is possible, but not reaqlly very practical.

The preferred means of following load curves is for the coal fired plant to be spinning, generating at low load (say 40%) at all times of the day, ramping up during times of increased load or decreased wind. This happens now. It is not unusual in Australia’s grid at present for a generating corporation owning (say) 6 coal fired units to have one on maintenance or cold standby and 5 in service producing say 1.5 or 2 GW during shoulder periods and rising to 2.5 or 3 GW during peaks, still leaving 0.5 GW spinning reserve.

OCGT can be started from cold in about 5 minutes, ramping up to 100% in minutes – say 10 or 15 minutes overall, but is not significantly less carbon dense than coal. It is much more flexible, but carbon emissions are not much better.

CCGT is another kettle of fish again. It sits between the two above cases in terms of ability to respond to load changes, but the boilers are similar to coal fired boilers and thus suffer in the same way if they are ramped up and down wildly and/or run intermittently. This can be done, but at a monetary cost and a carbon cost. They would no longer achieve 60+% thermal efficiency and they are using for fuel some of the world’s supplies of either gas or diesel, which has a higher profile use waiting for it in transport.

I view OCGT as an expensive emergency option, less desirable than nuclear options for everyday load scenarios for a host of reasons.

Blackouts. You seem to be strangely accepting of blackouts. I am sure that Joe Public is nowhere near as sanguine on this subject, especially if his home dialysis machine is affected or Mrs Public is half way through cooking the evening meal and needs to hurry or she will be late for her second job, stacking shelves in Woollies. Thousands of train and tram passengers, mid-journey, would not be likely to sit idly and accept that a 4 hour wait or a two hour walk in the rain are reasonable additional prices to pay for the green power option.

Perhaps unlike you, I have been trapped in a lift on several occasions. The humourous side of this wears off as soon as one of your fellow passengers needs to pee, or a toddler chucks a tantrum.

You claim that some 3rd world citizens live through such events and so should Aussies. Quite simply, you are wrong. Does there have to be an armed insurrection to convince you to change your mind? I can forsee blackouts in the next winter, if not this one. Your proof will be evident in the letters pages of the newspapers immediately after the next 4 hour, peak hour, capital city blackout. Nobody will write in saying thankyou.

To accuse me of exaggeration when I commented that we would need $50B or $100B to build a grid to connect everywhere to everywhere is wrong. You have stated that the wind is blowing somewhere. I demonstrated that weather systems can shut down or drastically reduce wind power throughout SA, Vic and NSW at the same time. I deduce that your additional wind must come from beyond the existing grid and I note that the report which started this thread envisages connecting all of Australia, from the west coast to north Queensland. This is no ordinary task, involving multiple DC links, immense stability issues, heaps of remote area construction and on second thoughts, I am sure that there would be no change from $200B, but let’s not quibble about something like money. The task is technologically impractical and, in 10 years, unconstructable. Wde are certainly not just discussing the existing NEM grid any more.

Your contention that a start on nuclear would be delayed by ten years due to the actions and false obstructionism by the likes of yourself is either a threat or a self-fulfilling prophesy. It is, however, not necessarily true. A start within two years is absolutely possible if there is the political and public will to act rationally, at least cost and maximum safety and reliability towards a low carbon energy future. What is missing is the urgency and I do not happen to agree with your attempts to sit, irrationally, in the road.

You end by admitting that nuclear may be dominant by 2040. Why, then, do you now argue against it? lf nuclear power is part of your vision by 2040, why not push for a start right now, in parallel with whatever wind, solar, etc capacity can be constructed in the meantime?

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Stephen Gloor,

your bogus assumptions that gold-plate your critique of the BZE plan

I am not sure which assumptions you are referring to. I thought I’d addressed all of them. Could you please do exactly this:

1. List the assumptions that you feel we have wrong

2. Provide what your revised assumption would be in place of ours

3. Explain what is wrong with ours and why you believe yours is more appropriate

4. Define the quantum difference it makes to the overall costs.

Do not introduce fossil fuels as that was not allowed in the ZCA2020 plan so we did not consider it in our critique either (although fully aware that of course any solar power station will have to be a gas hybrid).

If we were to introduce fossil fuels, than it becomes a totally different argument and we’d need to agree terms of reference before we could start that discussion.

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Climate Spectator is clearly a renewable energy advocacy site.

That might be unduly harsh. I think they are a news site, which relies on advertisers, so their coverage reflects where the news (business activity) is, and the interests of their advertisers. There’s no nuclear news in this country but a lot of renewables news, so its unsurprising the coverage is focussed on renewables. In the end they’re just following the (advertisers) money. That doesn’t excuse uncritical coverage of energy, but I think there is more to the dynamic than simple renewable advocacy. If there were a way to connect adevrtisers with eyeballs by covering nuclear news I expect they’d do it. But in this country that’s not really a viable business right now.

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@Peter 11:13, I think you mischaracterise Climate Spectator somewhat. The thing to remember about them is that they are first and foremost a commercial operation. Their primary target audience is people involved in current climate-related businesses – carbon offset agencies and traders, solar, wind and geothermal workers, and investors in same. Those people are not going to appreciate being told repeatedly that they’re misguided.

The Climate Spectator editors know this, and act accordingly.

How’s that quote go? “It is very difficult to get someone to understand something, if their livelihood depends on their not understanding it.” Or something like that.

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Peter Lang – “I am not sure which assumptions you are referring to. I thought I’d addressed all of them. Could you please do exactly this:”

And this is precisely the position you alway take. Divert with a list of questions that actually have been answered as they haven’t been. Neil in post 5 or so said this:

“Thus scaling peak demand at 75GW is too high.”

and

“A second error would be scaling reserve capacity to 25% above peak.”

And this from me that Martin chimed in with:

“In the absence of an LOLP analysis we took the view that the existing network operators will demand a 33% margin above the peak as they do today. ”

They don’t. They calculate POE from demand forecasts and measure the USE resulting. They then set the MRL to less than the reliability standard. 33% above peak is simply what we have.

Table 6.2 – Reserve Surplus over MRL, 2010-11 and 2011-12
Qld NSW Victoria SA
1422 2206 682 -25
2011-12 MRLs 752 1760 722 139

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con’t as I hit submit by mistake formatting the table

Table 6.2 – Reserve Surplus over MRL, 2010-11 and 2011-12
Qld NSW Vic SA
1422 2206 682 -25 2011 MRL
752 1760 722 139 2012 MRL

This is from the “Final Report for Operational MRLs – 2010 MRL Recalculation”

Click to access 0249-0002.pdf

As you can clearly see all states except SA have healthy surpluses over MRL. To say that supply is in excess of demand to the tune of 33% is for reliability reasons is demonstrating that you do not understand how MRLs are calculated and applied in the energy market. If the operational reserves were required to be 33% above demand then there would not be surpluses in any of the generating areas. How much plainer can I put it? Would you care to contact the AEMO and tell then that the consulting group ROAM, that they hired to do this very critical work, actually got it wrong and they should consult with you instead?

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Peter Lang – Don’t bother answering the questions as I will not be checking for any replies. I have been sucked into far more responses that I ever wanted to do.

No danger of Ender fatigue Barry.

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Stephen Gloor,

I won’t bother answering your nonsense. You haven’t a clue what you are talking about, and it is not worth the trouble trying to sort it out with you. I’ve answered all your questions and assertions. But you choose not to take any notrice because you do not get the answer you want. So I agree, it is totally pointless trying to discuss your assertions. I think the suggestion I put to you and Neil here https://bravenewclimate.com/2010/08/12/zca2020-critique/#comment-92000
was constructive, but you don’t want to risk trying that approach.

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ROAM’s report to AEMO is relatively straight-forward, but only in a mathematical manner.

FROM MEMORY: A couple of years back, an explosion and fire in Bayswater’s switchyard which belongs to TransGrid, not Macquarie Generation, took out three of the four units. This is a capacity of 2980 MW, which was running mid-afternoon at somewhere above 60% capacity. The finakl unit sagged to well below frequency but miraculously stayed on line. About 1300 MW was lost and a further spinning reserve of about 700MW was taken out. It was extremely fortuitous that this did not result in a cascading failure throughout the system.

Thus, mathematicians may come and mathematicians may go, but the engineer in me is convinced that the system must remain stable under conditions where the worst possible single event happens – in this case, the loss of the biggest power station in Australia.

Mathematician’s curves are smoothed and played with, averaged and integrated to within an inch of their metaphorical lives. The real world comes in chunks and these chunks are linked in ways that defy modelling, especially statistical modelling.

NSW was particularly lucky that, at this time of need, there was surplus capacity in the system above the calculated target Minimum Reserve Capacity.

So, both Ender and Peter Lang are correct. Only the assumptions and perspectives differ. There is no need for duelling statisticians.

The fact remains, however, that whatever the installed capacity of wind, this same report explains why energy from wind is not capable of being despatched or modelled. Wind power is so unreliable that it is ignored in calculation of system capacity and MRC. No matter how much wind energy is harvested, the whole system must be designed for the non-wind case and then try to pay for wind on top.

Wind is thus a very expensive extravagance and a great way to export dollars to Denmark for hardware.

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OOPS!

Para 2 above. 3 Bayswater units are 1980MW, not 2980MW as stated.

Further, my memory is not clear – all four units may have tripped, with the first restored to service within an hour or two and the last after about 12 hours. This does not affect the story materially.

My apologies.

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John Morgan na Mark Duffet,

Thank you for your clear thinking. You are both correct. I agree. I’ll try to act appropriately from now on.

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I’ve answered all your questions and assertions.

I’m not sure if you have. You seem to be ducking out of something here Peter.

Did you really address the following? If so, where?

To say that supply is in excess of demand to the tune of 33% is for reliability reasons is demonstrating that you do not understand how MRLs are calculated and applied in the energy market. If the operational reserves were required to be 33% above demand then there would not be surpluses in any of the generating areas. How much plainer can I put it? Would you care to contact the AEMO and tell then that the consulting group ROAM, that they hired to do this very critical work, actually got it wrong and they should consult with you instead?

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EclipseNow,

Sorry, I disagree. Both Martin and I have answered these assertions. See thse two posts for a start:

‘Zero Carbon Australia – Stationary Energy Plan’ – Critique

‘Zero Carbon Australia – Stationary Energy Plan’ – Critique

Is this the last outstanding assumption that you, Neil and Stephen disagree with or are the three of you still arguing that our hydro resources can be diverted to use for backing up for wind and solar. I’d just like to know how many assumptions are still being disputed, because I am frustrated with trying to address continually changing arguments. We don’t get resolved, they never admit when they are wrong, never retract any of their wrong statements and assertions. I feel they actually don’t want to address the issues, they just want to try to find some point to argue about, not because it is relevant, but just to try ot cause a smokescreen to support their belive in RE. So I’ve runn out on patience in trying to resolve anything with either of them.

Regarding your assertions about ABARE, I’ll be getting back to you.

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Stephen and John, I also read the ROAM report when doing the analysis for the Critique.

I was struck by the fact that all 3 independent networks (NEM, SWIS and NWIS) had reserve margins of around 33% above summer peaks. I was aware that the ROAM MRL calculations suggested this was excessive.

I decided to go with the guys who have to make it work, the system operators, rather than an advisory consultant’s view using, as John pointed out, simulation models.

If we see the reserve margin in these networks progressively reduce then I think we can agree that the 33% is excessive. Until then? I’d go with the guys whose jobs are on the line.

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Eclipsenow,

I’ll try to make this simple.

I believe the 33% reserve capacity margin we allowed is enormously generous to the ZCA plan.

I don’t believe any amount of reserve capacity margin could make the proposed ZCA system able to provide a reliable electricity supply.

So arguing about whether the reserve capacity should be 33% or something less is just silly.

Just think for a moment and compare the reliability of our mature, coal and gas electricity generators with wind and solar plants, backed up by burning pelletised wheat stalks, and located a long distance from the demand centres.

Think about all the problems in the reliability of these un proven technologies, the logistics sytem needed to get the wheat stalks from the wheat fields to the solar power stations, and so on. The need water supplies to the edge of the desert. The power stations need a work force and repair people out there with quick access time. We have to allow for droughts and floods causing unexpected biomass shortages. We have to allow for dust storms like we had a year ago. That dust caked on everything and didn’t wash off. It would take years to clean all that off the solar reflector surfaces.

I urge you and the others to think before attacking and accusing us of misleading you. Just think how could these suggested technologies possibly provide a reliable electricity supply?

Given the above, what is the point of arguing whether the reserve capacity margin should be 33% or any other figure. Even if we cut it back to 25% or 20% (an absolute minimum for the best networks in USA and Europe) it would make very little difference. ZCA missed it altogether and that is a significant error.

I think 33% is very conservative and 100% would not be sufficient. No amout would be sufficient.

I hope this helps.

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At the top of the above post, I’ve now added some media-suitable ‘sound bytes’ from the critique, prepared by Martin. Obviously, please read the whole critique below to understand the context:

–They assume we will be using less than half the energy by 2020 than we do today without any damage to the economy. This flies in the face of 200 years of history.

–They have seriously underestimated the cost and timescale required to implement the plan.

–For $8 a week extra on your electricity bill, you will give up all domestic plane travel, all your bus trips and you must all take half your journeys by electrified trains.

–They even suggest that all you two car families cut back to just one electric car.

–You better stock up on candles because you can certainly expect more blackouts and brownouts.

–Addressing these drawbacks could add over $50 a week to your power bill not the $8 promised by BZE. That’s over $2,600 per year for the average household.

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Barry Brook
They assume we will be using less than half the energy by 2020 than we do today without any damage to the economy. This flies in the face of 200 years of history.
This is very misleading, the ZCA2020 plan envisages 50% more electricity consumption, but replacing the energy in FF’s ( PJ/year) with much more efficient kWh. If all FF is replaced by nuclear power we would also see a dramatic reduction in energy use based on MWe output, because more than 2/3 of coal and oil energy is lost as waste heat. It is also envisaging a more energy efficient economy, approaching present day Europe.
I dont see how poorly insulated homes and low fuel economy vehicles are helping our economy.

They even suggest that all you two car families cut back to just one electric car.
To be fair, the ZCA2020 plan is suggesting 3/4 of private vehicle transport is replaced by mass-transit, with the 1/4 private using electric rather than oil based energy. It is really the VMT by private vehicles not the number parked in driveways.The energy used by maintaining present private vehicle use(VMT) but switching to electric is rather small, and is going to have to happen whether renewables and or nuclear provide that electricity.
I dont think you are suggesting our society should continue to rely on private oil based transport

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Neil Howes (20 Aug at 10:28) appears to draw some of his numbers from strange sources, perhaps his derriere.

First, he claims that the plan allows for 50% increase in energy consumption. Not so. This is absolutely misrepresentation of the highest order and is based on a mythical increase in efficiency of 50 to 80%. So, today’s loads increase by 50% then decrease due to these supposed efficiency gains to 50% of the number we started out with before the pea and thimble game began.

To achieve this is somewhat akin to re-engineering and re-tooling every single residence and workplace in Australia by tomorrow afternoon. Pink batts will not achieve this. Windows would need to be replaced in toto, wall materials such as weatherboard tightly sealed, everythin pulled apart and rebuilt, repainted and to exacting standards, and that’s just homes. Repeat ditto through every part of our infrastructure. Immediately if not sooner. What dreaming this is!

The thermal efficiency of modern thermal power stations, whether nuclear or coal fired or whatever, is well above 40%. I leave others to make fine corrections here. Bayswater (vintage 1985 or so) units are about 39% efficient. Qld’s supercritical units are somewhat better. About half these losses go up the stack or are used to run auxilaries such as steam feed pumps, which every power station needs.

Nuclear will be about the same, except for the stack losses, depending on the technology adopted, because the boiler/turbine sets operate on similar principles – only the heat source has changed. The sentence “If all FF is replaced by nuclear power we would also see a dramatic reduction in energy use based on MWe output, because more than 2/3 of coal and oil energy is lost as waste heat. is thus nonsense. The difference between the two is not worthy of argument in the real world. What matters is the energy sent out, which is 100% of the NAMEPLATE rating of the FF or nuclear units, where 1000MW means 1000MW.

Solar and wind and other related sources operate intermittently, typically averaging say 30% of the NAMEPLATE rating and require substantial backup if blackouts are to be avoided. 1000MW means 300MW and even these are unreliable. Go figure.

Regarding the discussion of numbers of cars and motive sources for same. This is a case of chicken and egg, or rather, cart before the horse.

Of course people don’t want to pay for additional cars just to soak up their domestic capital. The way things now are, there is no option if husband, wife and perhaps a couple of kids are to get to work and play. Let’s see the alternative before we cut the ground out from under the millions of Aussies who don’t choose cars – they need them. Most have no alternative yet and most will still be in this same situation in ten years’ time, because rebuilding all of our transport system is likely to take decades, regardless of the effort and money thrown at this problem.

Even the Snowy Scheme took 20+ years. If this debate continues without thought for time and cost constraints we are wasting our time.

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Regarding time constraints please note that there is an addendum critique on wind farm Implementation Times in ZCA at the top of this page. Barry forgot to mention this addendum in his earlier post.

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John Bennetts,
You made several points, which are more or less seriously put, though indicating minimal understanding of the operational constraints of coal fired and CCGT power.
We have several examples of coal-fired power being used seasonally and some mothballed coal-fired being activated when gas supply has failed.
Furthermore, the existing >40GW of FF thermal power is going to be around for a long time before replaced by renewable and or nuclear. The CO2 emissions are going to be determined by how frequently it is operating and at what power level. Wind and solar variability is fairly long duration( days ) and seasonal. It is not necessary to have 100% back-up for wind and solar to be available in 5mins because wide-spread cloud or low wind weather systems move over periods of days. Further, much more OCGT is planned to be built.

Blackouts. You seem to be strangely accepting of blackouts thats not what I said, I said we already have blackouts and they are accepted, because they are relatively infrequent and of a short duration. Furthermore, many industrial users accept non-firm power that can and is load shed during high demand periods.

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@Neil Howes, on 20 August 2010 at 12.13:

I stand by what I said re operational constraints on coal fired, OCGT and CCGT power stations. Whether or not >40GW of existing coal fired power will be around “for a long time” is in part a function of how fast the steam generating end of these is converted to using a nuclear heat source in lieu of coal, which is entirely possible if not guaranteed. I have explained the value in this previously.

OCGT and CCGT systems operate exactly within constraints as described by me.

My real point is that regardless of the amount of sun and wind that is harnessed, the initial report is based on abandoning the coal fired units, which is an impossibility without replacement nuclear, in order to get some kind of reliability at levels acceptable to the public.

Similarly, I stand by my comments re blackouts. The current standards for blackouts/load shedding call for meeting at least 95% of all loads 99.98% of the time, ie one reasonable sized blackout somewhere on the grid each year, or thereabouts. What I believe the public cannot and will not accept is a laissaiz-faire attitude to blackouts to the point of risking them on a daily basis or whenever the wind drops, purely because of quasi-religious determination that nuclear, which is safe and cheap, is somehow preferred to expensive, underpowered, unreliable, so-called renewables which are proposed on the basis that they will last 25 or more years with no such records on the board.

Show me a 25-year old solar panel which has generated reliable, day and night, rain and shine, for 25 years and I will consider changing my mind.

Until this happens, I prefer to rely on statistically relevant methods for assessing reliability.

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Yet again, OOPS!

I presented a reversed meaning in one sentence above, due to attempted haste and an overly long sentence.

What I believe the public cannot and will not accept is a laissaiz-faire attitude to blackouts to the point of risking them on a daily basis or whenever the wind drops, purely because of quasi-religious determination that nuclear, which is safe and cheap, is somehow NOT preferred to expensive, underpowered, unreliable, so-called renewables which are proposed on the basis that they will last 25 or more years with no such records on the board.

My bad.

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Bryen,

Thank you for this additional critique. It is valuable to have these details of the critique posted here.

I would like to expand on your critique of the ZCA2020 solar timeline:

1 The material we have found on RSEP so far does not state how much storage is planned, but we know it is small because the expected average annual capacity factor is only 34%; it will be much less in winter. It is basically a summer time, day time generator. Nothing like what the ZCA plan is built on.

2

“Stage 2 (2015-2020) : During stage 2, a constant rate of around 6,000 – 7,000MW/yr of construction will see the completion of the bulk of the required CST capacity.

Since solar thermal needs about 10 times as much material as nuclear per MW of capacity, solar would need roughly 10 times the workforce to construct it. Therefore, if we could build 6000 MW per year of solar thermal (that has never been built anywhere yet), using the same assumptions we could build the same capacity of nuclear even faster. On this basis nuclear could replace all our fossil fuel generators by 2020, just as ZCA claims could be done with solar thermal. The point to take from this is how ludicrous is the ZCA assumptions. They are unrealistic but orders of magnitude. This is a window on what the whole ZCA2020 plan is like

Furthermore, not only does solar thermal require 10 times the material and, therefore roughly 10 times more workforce, but whereas nuclear would be constructed relatively close to our cities where workforce and the necessary supporting services are available, the soar farms are a long way from the major population centres. Therefore it will be much more difficult, and costly, to build solar farms than nuclear even if an equivalent amount of labour was required.

I suspect one of the supporters of the ZCA plan will point out that nuclear takes about 4 to 5 years to build (Gen IIIs in Japan, China, Korea), but the ZCA plan assumes the solar thermal plants can be built in 2.5 years. Well the ZCA plan has no basis for its assumption. It is just another example of the extreme case of wishful dreaming upon which the plan is built. No solar plants of the types assumed in ZCA have ever been built, nor even designed. They are decades away from reality at the most optimistic.

3 Regarding Table 3.2, S&L forecast 1214 MW of solar thermal tower projects would be installed throughout the world by 2020. The first plant is now at least 7 years behind schedule. Despite this, ZCA2020 plan assumes 100 MW will be under construction in 2011 (next year) and 42,500 MW will be installed by 2020, in Australia! Not only this, but ZCA assumes a a plant with storage capacity that is not even on the drawing board.

4 You say

It is also unlikely that Solar 220‟s will be online before 2020

It should be pointed out that none of these plants are planned to have 17 h storage, so it is unlikely any plants of the type assumed by ZCA2020 plan will be online by 2020.

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@ Barry Brook, on 20 August 2010 at 16.13.
Fantastic addition, Barry!

It saddens me to see that solar thermal is now 7 years behind and that many of the ZCA’s assumptions re techological availability and actual completed, commercial experience are not supported by their own references. Nobody gains from delays to development of otherwise promising green alternatives, however it is simply inexcusable for ZCA to include such wildly inaccurate nonsense.

Now we will all (ZCA included) have to work much harder to correct these errors and re-educate the public before we will be able to move forward. Damn.

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Tremendous site guys, and very interesting exchanges of views. I hope you can all refrain from too much name-calling though i know this can be difficult when arguing passionately-held beliefs.

I will declare my bias up-front: i am involved in exploration to locate uranium reserves with the firm belief that EVEN Australia, with its world-dominant position of nuclear source materials (low-cost uranium) will eventually swing towards nuclear power generation. perhaps not for mainstream power in the Southeast populations centres, but certainly for desalination plants and regional industrial hubs.

Can I ask please that you provide a background somwehere on the site for the authors of the critique? Perhaps it is there and I missed it. However I find it useful to know the background and qualifications of the people who post important information.

Thanks again and congratulations.

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Whilst I can understand why this site pushes hard for a nuclear solution I think that there is excessive focus on renewables and their inadequacies when the greatest obstacle to nuclear is not the Green/renewables push but the thoroughly entrenched fossil fuel industry and the lack of an effective carbon price. I really think Martin – and Barry – has been wrong to direct so much focus on attacking renewables whilst tolerating dirty cheap energy until sentiment changes; the wait could be longer than any of us can tolerate.

Get a price on carbon and there’ll be more effective selling of the lower cost benefits of nuclear – even more so if renewables fail to deliver – but I really fear King Coal will simply divide and conquer – the high costs of renewables plus the lingering but not altogether logical public opposition to nuclear will be their PR tools to prevent effective policy. That and the power of mining royalty gigadollars.

Sorry but I can’t condemn the Greens position; they actually have a policy, albeit one that will almost surely be expensive but it won’t be as expensive as failure to reduce emissions at all and that’s where the mainstream parties remain. It’s mainstream politics that’s letting us down here. They seem incapable of serious direct action and show no signs of being on the verge of making nuclear the keystone of any future energy policy so you better add at least another decade or more to any projections of what nuclear might really do for us.

The best we are likely to get is a price on carbon that doesn’t simply funnel the money into an even less workable clean energy solution; Carbon Capture and Storage – possibly the greatest greenwash scam ever perpetrated on the public. Get that price in place and maybe, just maybe there’ll be some chance of progress on climate and energy.

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Ken you have raised some good points. For 40 years I have observed the renewable versus nuclear debate take centre stage while in the background fossil fuels continue to pollute the atmosphere with CO2 without any cost penalty. This has allowed the rapid expansion of fossil fuels during this time with little if any competition from non carbon energy sources. Until CO2 emissions are regarded as pollution and are penalised by a carbon tax or similar I fear that we could still be in the same position in another 40 years as vested fossil fuel interests continue to successfully stall any move to a viable non carbon energy economy.

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Peter, the fear of rising energy costs is more widely a tool of the Denial, Doubt and Delay crowd (I like to refer to them as 3’Ders – a lot like ID’ers but with a poorer grasp of science) and such a message from pro-nuclear activists who genuinely want action on climate is lost amongst that crowd’s noise.

I fear rising costs less than I fear complete failure to act. We’ve had 2 full decades of pretending that delay is our friend. Australia, as the word’s largest coal exporter, is not inconsequential in a global sense. I think that our ‘good fortune’ in that regard will come back to bite us when the real world consequences hit and politicians and nations that happily purchased our fossil fuels look for scapegoats for the collective failures they were part of. There are more costs to Australia than those purely based on price per KWHr.

Despite the protest swing to the Greens, neither major party has really grasped this nettle. Both look well suited to presiding over the world’s coal mine for the foreseeable future and look more likely to push for gas for local consumption when hard pressed than nuclear, despite it being no more capable than coal in delivering the longer term emissions reductions we really need.

Right now there are major new coal plants in the pipeline; sorry but I’d rather we ‘waste’ money building renewables than waste it building coal or gas plants that we can’t allow to run for more than a fraction of their working life. There’s waste and there’s waste; at least new solar won’t face premature closure and I don’t think we will regret having them when the heatwave that kills whole regions ends all remnants of denialist delusion.

Lay the groundwork for inclusion of nuclear as you go but get clear about who and what your real opposition is in this. And don’t underestimate their power to thwart and undermine public will.

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Tom, I agree; the per KWHr costs of fossil fuels do not represent what they really cost. As long as the energy market fails to incorporate the ever growing climate debt that’s growing with interest we’ll keep building coal and gas plants on the mistaken belief they are cheaper. They’ve given a lot of good to billions of people but it’s time to quit whilst we are (arguably) still ahead.

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Mike Rann, Premier of South Australia, is reported to have said yesterday that Australia is failing to meet its international responsibilities by delaying introduction of an ETS.

What hypocrisy. He says this, with a straight face, while he, and all the other Federal, state and territory Labor governments, stridently oppose nuclear power, put in place and maintain bans on nuclear power, make anti-nuclear statements at every opportunity and whip up anti nuclear fears at every election.

Why should we take these sort of pronouncements as any more than opportunistic, wedge politics.

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Tom and Ken,

I hear you. Your call for an ETS is familiar. As is arguing it is delay and denial is too.

I partly agree. However, I feel that most of the people who call for this do not understand the economic cost of imposing a carbon price while at the same time preventing the most cost effective way of reducing emissions. They also have not considered the consequences of doing so with respect to th rate of world emissions reductions.

Most of the people who make the arguments you are making are really arguing from an idealistic and ideological perspective. What they really want is more command and control, more taxes, imposts on business, and Renewable energy, just because they think it is good.

I am convinced we will never get past this and remove the imposts on nuclear if we impose a price on carbon first.

When I see the two of you making the case and genuinely arguing to remove all the imposts on nuclear, that is when I’ll believe your genuine about cutting CO2 emissions rather than just trying to push your ideology.

Tom said:

Until CO2 emissions are regarded as pollution and are penalised by a carbon tax or similar I fear that we could still be in the same position in another 40 years as vested fossil fuel interests continue to successfully stall any move to a viable non carbon energy economy.

This is true. But equally true is we’ll be in the same position in 40 years time if we don’t remove the ban and other impediments on nuclear. There is no point imposing a carbon price while the ban and imposts remain. That is what needs to be tacked. While Labor Greens and the environmental NGO’s oppose nuclear, the whole basis of their argument is a fraud.

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I agree that if the Greens have their way we will end up following the disastrous German model but without the benefit of pre-existing nuclear. What troubles me is that they not only want the $23 carbon tax but to introduce feed-in tariffs for commercial wind and solar, presumably replacing the REC approach.

At face value you’d think that this policy might make life difficult for Hazelwood since 1.4 kg CO2/kwe X 2.3c per kg CO2 = 3.2 c extra on each kwh. Since mixed cycle gas might only pay 1c they get a leg up but their basic fuel cost is higher. However I am certain that the parasitic carbon credit industry will find some way of wangling carbon tax ‘deductions’.

Should Abbott get to form a government he not only has to face the Greens in the Senate but now the power industry say they want long term policy assurances. PMs come and go in 3 years or less but a big power plant is for 40 years. I also note that under the RET framework generators will directly own their quota of wind farms to generate inhouse ‘credits’. Once met the coal plants then get to emit unabated.

Thus I think none of Liberals, Labor or Greens has the right approach. However I’m not longer sure just what is the right approach but it ain’t the German model.

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Ken, I am not attacking renewable energy per se. If I am attacking anything it is the unrealistic expectations that are promulgated by renewable energy supporters. The BZE proposal was one of the more realistic attempts I have seen to find a way to exclusively use renewable energy. Where it failed badly, and the focus of the critique, was that it grossly misrepresented the likely cost. It gives false hope to those who want to believe that renewable energy can provide an attractive solution.

Unlike Peter, I agree that a price on carbon is essential. The difficulty is that for a carbon price alone to make renewable solutions like BZE’s financially viable it probably needs to be over $300 per tonne. For CCS and nuclear it needs to be “only” $90 and could well be much less for nuclear. Doing nothing, the carbon price can remain zero. For me, doing nothing is not an option. A carbon price of $300 will add 30 cents a kWh to the cost of electricity coming out of the Hunter valley and 40 cents from the Latrobe valley. That is between 6 and 8 times the cost we currently pay to those generators. One way or the other we will all have to pay for that because we won’t be able to close those coal plants overnight. A carbon price of $90 will reduce the cost to under 10 cents – about double what we pay now to the generators.

Unfortunately for renewable energy the “science” (to use that awful popular expression) is against it. All RE energy sources are more dilute than existing solution, particularly uranium, and it will necessarily be more expensive to extract that energy and turn it into electricity. This is not “attacking” renewable energy it is just being realistic.

Personally, I don’t accept that it needs to take decades to implement nuclear power in Australia. There are no technical barriers to installing current generation nuclear plants in the same timescale it would take to implement BZE’s solution but at a fraction of the cost. It’s a different story for CCS because there may be technical barriers yet to be overcome. The nuclear problems are all political to do with regulation and public perception. We need to be honest with the public about the likely cost of electricity from renewable energy and nuclear power so they can make an informed choice. Hopefully at the next election.

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I heard Dr Mark Diesendorf on ABC radio yesterday afternoon (2NC 1233, approx 4:40pm) spouting the usual nonsense about solar PV being appropriate and viable and deserving of a capital construction subsidy from the other electricity users, via the retailers as well as a feed-in tariff of 60 cents per kWh (cf circa 4 cents per kWh for current coal or for proposed nuclear, as per the NEM).

Mark went on to spin that the Spanish and Germans have wound these tariffs back to 50 or 40 cents per unit because of the decreasing costs of construction and anticipated life spans of beyond 30 years for PV.

His affirmations that this is rational were not challenged by the interviewer. Not a word about the inequity of the government forcing non-users to pay more as the government also pays more and the retailers pay more… as the manufacturers and the sales folk laught on their way to the bank.

He also touched on the stupidity of offering this federal subsidy towards the capital cost of Solar PV, which has been so overgenerous that in only a few months, the allocation of funds for this has been fully taken up. This is supposed to be a 5 year program.

Mark is in favout of increasing the funds wasted through such largesse by (1) Allocating an unlimited amount of money so that households can put more of these onto their rooftops continuously; (2) Increasing the maximum size of PV array that the government will subsidise for private customers to place on their rooftops; and (3) Extending both the capital and the feed-in subsidies to commercial ventures.

This is by far a greater wrong than anything else happening in the power industry at present.

This type of illogical action leads to enormous boom and bust cycles in this industry, leaving n o industrial and skill base for future maintenance.

Enormous anmounts of money are already being wasted by capital subsidies. Mark D obviously is proposing at least a ten-fold increase in this waste, perhaps much much more.

Huge amounts of private money have been committed by governments who have arranged for the energy retailers to collect from such as my family so that this loot can be distributed, year after year, amongst the beneficiaries of the capital subsidy so that they can feel good about their inflated feed-in tariffs. This is planned to continue to be a weight on all of our shoulders for decades.

Maintenance of these solar panels on top of roofs is virtually impossible for householders, because it entails working on rooftops. Untrained, ill-equipped householders will soon start falling from their roofs and snapping their limbs and necks because of this. How can this possible be a sane or desirable outcome? It will certainly happen, and families will suffer as an unintended and uncosted consequence.

Mark also, quite erroniously, stated that this solar power will be available during morning and afternoon peaks. What? In Winter, when Mr Victoria rises in the dark of morning, the solar panels will contribute precisely zip to the morning peak. Similarly, in the evening, Mr Victoria had better be cooking by candle light on a gas stove, because PV certainly will not do the job.

I suggest that those who understand the illogical and the just plain stupid amongst current practices speak up. Peter’s call for us to only argue against policies which hobble the as yet non-existent Australian nuclear power industry are arguing for inaction on all other fronts.

Peter’s oft-repeated refrain on this topic is both illogical and just plain wrong. Repetition does not alter that very clear fact.

Ken Nicholson’s post immediately above is absolutely correct.

The Australian carbon footprint will not be decreased by focussing our efforts on an attempt to ignore the present in a vain hope for a better future. Peter Lang is just plain wrong on this and should re-think.

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I’ll have to come back to the argument about carbon pricing later. I don’t have time to do it justice now. I’ve written many posts on the matter previously, but they are not all together in one place and are not consolidated.

In the meantime, this article on Bjorn Lomborg’s new book may be of interest:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/aug/30/bjorn-lomborg-climate-change-profile
I have not read this new book but have read his previous books.

I do believe that investment decisions should be made on a proper cost/benefit basis.

I am convinced that pricing carbon in Australia, while the Greens and Labor and the environment NGO’s remain firmly opposed to clean electricity generation, is a fundamentally flawed approach. I’ve seen the delays this has caused for 20+ years and I am convinced it will continue for as long as we attempt to ignore and cover up the underlying problem – ideological beliefs!

The advocates would be better off to spend their energy confronting Greens, Labor party machine, and the environmental NGO’s to change their anti nuclear policies.

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@Peter Lang:
I believe that most users of this site have no reason to come together here to “confront Greens, Labor party machine(s)”.

Your ideological belief that one side of Australian politics must be destroyed so that the other side can do something about nuclear is purely political spin. There is no need for it here and it tends to devalue whatever else you wish to say.

You have never been able to coherently show that by re-pricing coal and other GHG power sources, this in any way slows down the switch to nuclear. It remains an unproven contention of yours.

Peter, you seem determined not to give an inch on this mad claim of yours; you repeat it endlessly; and you deprecate those who disagree.

Please, leave it alone! If anybody agreed with you, you would have received support in this and other threads. Face it – you are an army of one, in step with only yourself.

Points for thick skin and tenacity you certainly win, but not your own argument of choice.

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John Bennetts you seem to spend a lot of energy telling me what I should and shouldn’t say and believe. You also seem to believe your unsubstantiated statements are OK and should simply be accepted, like “Peter Lang is just plain wrong on this and should re-think”.

Perhaps you need the rethink.

And how about this for a stupid statement:

Please, leave it alone! If anybody agreed with you, you would have received support in this and other threads. Face it – you are an army of one, in step with only yourself.

That might be how your unions work, but luckily I didn’t spend my career being indoctrinated that way.

You are telling me to leave alone and I should support group think; that might be your approach, but it’s not mine.

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Peter, I have put the rational point of view many times. Your totally emotional, personal and disruptive messages have been left unsupported by the many other visitors to this site.

Of course this is significant.

A sentient being would realise that they were not making headway and reconsider their message, technique and methods. Instead, you play the same cracked record resisting attempts by others to put in place any form of pollution charge for GHG emission.

A sentient being would, in the face of repeated negative remarks by EVERY other contributor, reconsider the effectiveness of a barrage of personal abuse emanating from your keyboard.

A sentient being would also reconsider your use of blatantly political sloganeering re Green policy and the current government’s efforts during the past couple of years. The Federal Government did not kill four workers – this matter is a usual OH&S issue within the realm of State governments. Domestic building fires have not be statistically worse or better post-insulation than before. These issues have absolutely nothing to do with nuclear power and have, at best, slight relevance to anything which appears on this wonderful site.

Are you intentionally setting out to drive Barry brook’s readers away? Is there a double negative thing happening here, whereby you are seriously trying your level best to upset those who vist here and to drive them away?

I have not really suggested that you should support group think, as you have said. What I want you to do is to at least respond to the thinking of the group.

I once said that you are a slippery person, changing the subject rather than accepting criticism. This is still true. Nobody but you introduced the party political invective which s so unnecessary. This is a sure sign of a poor loser.

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I still believe the most serious opposition nuclear faces is the fossil fuel industry, not the Greens. Their strategists are surely snickering with delight at what they read on this site; clear evidence this schism within climate activism still has plenty of scope for blocking a price on carbon and maintaining business as usual. And they’ve barely begun to shift from behind the scenes influence into open campaigning.
On the mass media front they continue to score victories, currently with the media encouraging public perception of IPCC incompetence and bias. The media is not promoting the perception that in every important respect it has represented the true state of our scientific understanding of climate remarkably well and climate change is inexorabley gathering pace. They’re giving national coverage to Bob Carter right now, not Barry Brooks!

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I might add they are giving uncritical national coverage to Bob Carter right now. All those Nationals voters who’ve been sucked in by the lectures the Nationals helped organise are getting their misinformation confirmed.

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Ken Fabian,

I agree. But it is both fossil fuel industry and the Greens/Labor. We need to remove the impediments to nuclear first.

It should be much easier to change the policy of the Greens and Labor and the environmental NGO’s than the fossil fuel industry. After all, the fossil fuel industry has massive investment to defend, massive revenue to support a near unlimited campaign. On the other hand, the Greens and Labor are supporing their arguments with spin and nonsense. On one hand they say they want to cut ewmissions and on the other they are stridently opposed to nuclear – the cleanest of all electricity generators (LCA basis).

The logic is clear. But the message we need to get out is to change the position of the Greens and Labor.

The Greens and Labor are clear;ly more interested in symbolism than in implementing real solutions. If they were genuinely interested in real solutions their arguments would be about want we need to do to remove all the impediments to nuclear, and especially to low cost nuclear in Australia. And what we can do to facilitate fast roll out.

\Here is one out of left field. Remove the $3 billion subsidy to the car industry and the subsidies to renewables and fossil fuels and build a production system like was built in the USA in the 1940’s to build tanks. The plant would build small reactors under licence such as the Hyperion, or PRISM or some other suitable variety of small nuclear power plant. Then we’d roll them in Australia at an appropriate rate. Then we’d export them to the developing countries. I reckognise that China or Japan could probably do it cheaper, but we are subsidising the car, fossil fuel, renewables and CCS industry, so why not switch that to building small reactors? After all, that is how the Holden got its foot hold in Australia.

Ken, if you want to know what is behingd the push for the price on carbon, follow the money:

– EU versus USA for economic advantage
– Gas industry
– Renewable energy and researchers (all tjhose with their snout in the public funding trough)
– Banks
– traders

And of course the Left leaning activists who want to impose more command and control on society.

The left leaning political parties who want more tax revenue so they can spend it on pork barrelling to win elections, and waste it on programs like the Pink Bats insulation fiasco, the $43 billion nationalised broadband government owned and union controlled monopoly, and the BER rourt.

Those are the interest groups arguing for a carbon price.

The fact that you are arguing so strenuously for a symbol – a legisllated carbon price – instead of arguing for removal of the impediments to low cost nuclear convinces me that the argument ihas much more to do with symbolism than substance.

I am convinced that all whoa are arguing for a carbon price should be putting all their effort into arguing the case for the Greens, Labor, Greenpeace, ACF, WWF, FoE to change their policy on nuclear, and to do it NOW, if it is as urgent as you believe it is.

If you don’t do this, you are hypocritical.

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Ken,

You are really showing your left wing bias with this statement:

I might add they are giving uncritical national coverage.

I haven’t seen you complain about the ABC’s bias agaiinst nuclear and for renewable energy that has been blatant and continuous for 20+ years. The ABC is basically the advertising arm of the Labor Party. It is Australia’s Pravda.

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The ABC seems to have a split personality . On the one hand shows like Q&A berate climate change deniers. Shortly thereafter Lateline Business is cock-a-hoop over the latest coal export figures. Policy memo to ABC; coal is either good or bad, work out which.

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John Newlands.

No. Wrong. The ABC is not a political party. At least it is not supposed to be, even though nearly all the reporters seem to think it is their job to try to get Labor elected to government.

ABC is not supposed to take sides. It is not supposed to be a decisions making body. It is supposed to provide even handed reporting.

However, the Left want it to be a propoganda organisation for their beliefs. And so it is.

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Peter Lang wastes many column centimetres accusing those who differ of being Green, left wing, politically motivated ineffective dolts. He mixes this rhetoric with claims that he cannot and has not validated, to the extent that nothing apart from doing just one thing – lowering the cost of nuclear, if need be by subsidy using funds switched from, eg, the auto industry, to achieve this.

In particular, he illogically sticks to the concept that making coal pay its way via tax or by any other means is counter productive and that most people, including virtually every other contributer to BNC, are dead wrong, simply because in Peter Lang’s world he has power to decree that this is so.

What evidence is there of an alternative political force which is pro nuclear?

What evidence is there that any Australian political party will consider subsidising NPP’s and/or dropping existing support packages in favour of NPP’s?

What relevance does carping on about so-called leftists have, when at this stage no party in Australia has addressed any part of the real GHG problem?

If such a motivated and focussed party in fact exists, and this is clearly not the anti-nuke Greens, let’s get behind it, regardless of red/green/blue irrelevancies.

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John Bennetts has identified the key issue to my mind when he says (above):

“What evidence is there of an alternative political force which is pro nuclear?”

“What evidence is there that any Australian political party will consider subsidising NPP’s and/or dropping existing support packages in favour of NPP’s?”

This site represents the first necessary stage in starting the debate we need to have and hopefully making these questions redundant because it provides a forum for a rational exchange of ideas and a way of placing those ideas out for critical review.

I have found Peter’s comments central and highly enlightening though yes, I’m sure he and others have been a trifle emotive at times.

Can I suggest that the authors of the BZE critique consider updating it to include some of the new information that is presently in addenda and later exchanges?

I think this critique is one of the most important pieces of work around. If we really don’t have any choices except nuclear to take us forward then let us get the debate out to the community as soon as possible.

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“the Left want it to be a propoganda organisation for their beliefs”
Since when have Labor been considered “Left”? Not for the best part of 15 years.

And when the main alternative is led by a climate-change denying, religious nutjob who invades our televisions with crap like “stop the boats”, what do we expect?. Honestly, if he’s the only party leader pushing for nuclear power in this country, it’s no bloody wonder a lot of people in this country don’t take the energy issue seriously.

That said, I haven’t heard him say he’d actually look seriously at nuclear power either! Certainly wasn’t a part of his election campaign.

If the Libs (or anyone else for that matter) stated that they will take the climate problem seriously as well as remove the impediments to nuclear power (i.e. the ban and risk-premium) in the next election campaign, I’d probably vote for them. Until then, all the main parties (ALP, Libs, Greens) remain as underwhelming as each other.

This political mud-slinging around nuclear does not help to promote the implementation of it.

IMHO

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I agree Tom Keen. Enough. I remind people of the fairly straightforward commenting rules of BNC:

Comments Policy — I welcome comments, posts, suggestions and informed debate, from a wide range of perspectives. However, personal attacks, insulting/vulgar posts, or repetitious/false tirades will not be tolerated and can result in moderation or banning. Trolls will be warned, and then disemvowelled.

Civility — Clear-minded criticism is welcomed, but play the ball and not the person. Rudeness will not be tolerated. This includes speculation about motives or what ‘sort of person’ someone is. Civility, gentle humour and staying on topic are superior debating tools.

Relevance — Please maintain focus on the topic at hand. Do not attempt to solve big problems in a single comment, or to offer as fact what are simply opinions about complex matters.

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Peter, I have not said I oppose nuclear power and don’t; I just think it’s a long, long way off in Australia and that holding back growth of emissions, even if that means high energy costs is better than building more coal or gas plants that will face forced early closure with the extravagant waste that entails. That I consider solar if it’s got decent EROI to be worthwhile, that I don’t consider endless growth in energy supply to be essential or more important than emissions reduction, that I believe a society that is extravagantly wasteful of energy will not be brought to it’s knees by being less wasteful does not equate to opposition to nuclear.

I don’t oppose nuclear and I don’t oppose renewable having to compete but not on an unequal footing with fossil fuels that continue to accumulate a growing burden of external costs they don’t have to pay for.

I think renewables have shown a strong trend of getting cheaper that doesn’t look anywhere near over, despite the unequal time scales and resourcing that underwrote the long development time given to nuclear.

Meanwhile as we argue Australia is massively increasing it’s contribution to the problem; perhaps the coal and gas we sell can be considered the responsibility of the user but when the climate problem becomes a clear and present crisis Australia will not be absolved of responsibility. What that will cost is beyond calculation. I say Tax carbon, preferably tax carbon at the minehead.

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@Ken,

Well put. I would add that exports (coal, aluminium…) may well earn a refund and imports should be taxed for their energy content, the amount of import tax to reflect the CO2 emission rate of the originating country. That avoids the “one world government” issue.

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Peter, I meant to add that, regarding Bob Carter and the media; this goes to the heart of acceptance that there is even a climate problem, not the pro’s and con’s of proposed solutions. On that fundamental issue the fossil fuel industry is still scoring notable wins.

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Did everyone notice the cloud cover on the weather map tonight. Nearly all the ZCA2020 proposed solar power station site in Eastern Australia are under cloud.

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Ken,

Meanwhile as we argue Australia is massively increasing it’s contribution to the problem;

I agree. The solution is absoluteley clear. Get after tjhose blocking progress, which thoost opposed to nuclear.

Dont support renewables. It is totally uneconomic and has no hope of nbeing economic. As long as you and others keep hangiing to this hope (which is arguing for an economically irrational position) we will continue to delay.

Most people ar not going to support highly irrational policies, although some on the edge do support them irrespective of the cost to society.

So the way forward is clear, and what you shou;d nbe arguing for is clear. It is you and those with the views you are arguing for that are the block to progress.

By the way, attitudes of the majority can change quite quickly. The job is to get the information our and explain it. Not continually repeat it is too hard and wont happen. If we take that attitude it certainly won’t happen.

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PL I’ve got a hay shed. When that electric train pulls up I’ll kick in a few bales to keep the aluminium smelters going.

I think the simple message should be that despite generous subsidies wind and and solar have shown themselves totally unable to replace coal. Therefore we have to think of something else.

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Peter, I’d just like to make a few more points –

I think the price of carbon is absolutely fundamental to this issue; the abundance and low cost of fossil fuels is why we are both at the point of no return on climate change and why we face an impasse on effective action.

The cheapness of coal energy particularly has contributed enormously to better lives for huge numbers of people but it has also contributed greatly to a society that doesn’t really value energy and has come to see extravagant wastefulness not merely as some kind of inalienable right but as somehow an ingredient essential to our future.

Coal’s cheapness is why power stations have not been designed to respond to changes in demand; what so many here see as a problem with intermittent energy sources – failure to result in equivalent reductions in emission – is actually a fundamental flaw of coal fired power plants, not of wind or solar. I don’t believe it’s ever been an engineering difficulty that could not be overcome but builders and operators of coal power plants have had abundant, cheap raw materials and simply have never had incentive.

We haven’t seen any long term efforts to come up with large scale energy storage as a direct consequence of coal being so cheap that storage has never been an issue. It’s even now being treated as an afterthought. I don’t see that hydro should count in this regard as it’s more about them making most effective use of their high dams and issues with keeping enough water in them. Climate change could well see what hydro we have lose it’s reliability.

Most relevant to the arguments here – had Australia not had abundant cheap coal we would almost certainly have a well established nuclear power industry right now!

I’ve mentioned the impacts on Australia’s international standing from it’s place as the world’s biggest coal exporter. With a continuing policy of supporting fossil fuels domestically, we will exacerbate those trade and security problems. I don’t believe we will get off scot free. What that might cost can’t be embodied in any economic modelling.

I remain deeply dismayed that you would put any preconditions on supporting a carbon price and by that, allowing fossil fuel’s unfair market advantage to continue undiminished.

Lastly, I personally make a point of telling people I encounter who do accept that climate is a serious issue that nuclear power must be part of the solution, however when I encounter denial and doubt I try not to complicate the issue by making this about nuclear versus renewables. At this point I think the denial and doubt is widespread and persistent enough that it is the greatest impediment to community support for action. I consider doing what I can for future generations through urging genuine action on climate something that does not diminish us even if it does reduce my disposable income -just like if I put aside money for my kids education or health I am not diminished. That I voted Green is a reflection of my frustration with mainstream politics in Australia and I have made it clear to them that I think their historical attachment to anti-nuclear policy does not have my support.

I would like to thank you for the efforts you have made to respond to comments; not everyone makes such an effort

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Interesting thoughts.

I’d Barry is following this, the open thread has fallen off the home page. Might be time for a new one, and the discussion on carbon pricing and the future of the coal industry can be continued there.

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Peter,

“Did everyone notice the cloud cover on the weather map tonight. Nearly all the ZCA2020 proposed solar power station site in Eastern Australia are under cloud.”

A screen shot of that overlayed with ZCA’s proposed solar stations would make a good image to go with this article I think. Basically…where’d the power go?!

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Ken, you seem to think that coal fired power stations cannot follow the loads. This is incorrect. At any given time most power stations have partially loaded units, typically running in the range 30% to 70% load.

These can be ramped up or down as load changes, at 10 ot 20 MW/minute or better.

Even a very large load swing of 1000 MW can be accommodated easily by ramping 10 units up or down over 10 or 15 minutes, during which time some switchable loads can be reduced or dropped without affecting supply generally. These might include aluminium smelter, other large industry, off-peak water heaters and the like.

Of course, the immediate response would be to ramp up hydro – this can be achieved in a minute or two and stopped again just as fast, thus reserving water for this kind of need.

Thus, there is no realistic major impediment due to coal fired stations being inflexible… in practice, they are not.

I suggest that you drop this as an arguing point against coal.

I am surprised that nowhere in the literature have I seen any discussion of possible re-engineering existing coal stations to nuclear. Perhaps this is not possible, due to different steam temperatures and pressures. The cooling water systems should be pretty close to identical, though. Any thoughts on this?

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I am surprised that nowhere in the literature have I seen any discussion of possible re-engineering existing coal stations to nuclear. Perhaps this is not possible, due to different steam temperatures and pressures. The cooling water systems should be pretty close to identical, though. Any thoughts on this?

Check this site out:

http://www.coal2nuclear.com/

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Thanks, Finrod.

I will need to spend more time at coal2nuclear. First impressions are that it is run by a very sensible person. It is certainly chock-full of info and links.

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Ken Fabian,

I think the price of carbon is absolutely fundamental to this issue; the abundance and low cost of fossil fuels is why we are both at the point of no return on climate change and why we face an impasse on effective action.

I disagree with you. I’ve explained why on many posts on many threads including the “Alternative to the CPRS” thread and coments throughout, especially towards the end:

Alternative to Carbon Pricing

Increasing the cost of electricity is exactly the wrong policy if we want to cut world GHG emissions.

Continual repetition of “I want a price on carbon because it will save the world” is not going to persuade the majority. They majority will see it is just another silly symbol. You and others are arguing for this just as strongly as your predecessors who had similar beliefs have argued for all the prevous attempts to impose their will though regulations that damage the economy but do not achieve the desired outcome.

If we want to cut emissions we need to remove the impediments to low-cost, clean, safe electricity. To add more and more regulations to distort the market is the reverse of what should be done. If you the Greens, the environmental NGO’s and the Labor Party could get over your hang ups on this, then we’d make real progress and quickly (just like the other G20 countries).

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Dear me, Peter, you again pass up an opportunity to debate something and instead make an argument of it.

You have again provided a rude response to one who disagrees with you, topped off with political invective.

This is not rational and will convince nobody of the strength of your argument. I assume that you DO care? Or is this all about reflex action to feed an ego?

Your argument against a carbon tax is wearing the Emperor’s New Clothes. There is absolutely no problem with polluters having to pay for the privilege.

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Bennetts,

Dear me, Peter, you again pass up an opportunity to debate something and instead make an argument of it

Dear me, yourself. I’ve been debating this matter long before you arrived on this site and decided it was your duty to straighten me out as to what I should and shouldn’t say. What is your problem? Are you still wanting to play the unions shop-steward role? You can discuss the subject if you want to. You don’t have to keep on advising me about what I should and shouldn’t say, believe and think.

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Peter I want to think tactically. Your tactic appears to be negative, carping and unsupported abuse and politically motivated. Nothing more. Nothing substantial.

You claim to have hung around this site like a bad smell for years. This may be true, but smells eventually give way to clear air.

Please, just engage your faculties – your technique is not winning you friends or supporters. It is failing the cause.

Think about it. Please just lay off the personal stuff and stick to the facts. Blind refusal to allow costs which correctly, ethically and morally should be to the account of either the miners or the burners. You have not provided a shred of evidence why this should not happen. Nothing.

Please either stop pushing this empty argument or provide some proper argument in favour of this position. Simply accusing others of being Green, Shop stewards, or socialists or left wing or whatever is not an argument, it is carping nonsense.

This non-issue keeps being dragged onto centre stage, by one lone supporter. It is not productive to the cause of NPP’s and indicates an unwillingness to actually discuss the issues on their merits.

Perhaps Barry is right – this thread should be closed and a new one started. At least one of us needs to take a break.

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Bennetts,

In an earlier post you said let’s not talk about Bennetts, its not relevant. So why are you spending so much effort trying to advise me about what I should think and say. Are you a self appointed expert on this too? A frustrated father? A failed union shop-steward. Or the ‘thought police’? all ovf the above?

My advise to you is to not concern yourself about what I am saying. If you don’t like it, don’t read my posts.

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John Bennnetts,

How about we stop this? You’ve had your serve. I’ve replied. Let’s just leave it. And no more from now.

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John Bennetts, please, no more replies to Peter Lang. Any further replies directed at him will be deleted.

Peter Lang, please, no more replies to John Bennetts. Any further replies directed at him will be deleted.

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The ZCA2020 document has proposed that 60% of their prediction of Australian electricity needs, could be met by using solar concentrators by the year 2020, using current technology.

On p.50 of that report they state that the amount of molten salt required was 25 tonne/MWh. In many places in the report it says that the Molten Salt tanks would be dimensioned to support 17 hours of electricity production.

The arithmetic is easy: Each site, with its 17+ solar
concentrators, is intended to produce 3540MW.

Therefore the amount of salt is:
3540*17*25 = 1,504,500 tonnes,

Can you imagine how many truck loads that
would require? At 40 tonnes per B-Double, at
50 loads a day, 250 trucking days a year, that
would take several years to bring the salt.
Imagine the road damage caused by this
many trucks on desert roads.

The “salt” is basically sea salt
(see this ad: http://www.coastalchem.com/PDFs/HITECSALT/Hitec%20Solar%20Salt.pdf

As far as I can determine there are only two plants
currently using solar plus Molten Salt Storage.
These are the 5MW Archimedie plant in Italy, and the 50MW Andersol 1 plant in Spain.

The Archimedie plant is just window dressing for the
gas turbine generator on the site.

The Andersol 1 plant has only 7.5 hours of molten salt storage.

Hence their claims that they could build 12 * 17 * 217MW plants with 17 hours of Molten Salt Storage with “current technology” is fraudulent – anyone with a calculator can prove that.

I have checked the 25 tonnes/MWh figure and it is correct. Here are my calculations:

The heat capacity of the salt is 0.37 BTU/lb/degF (see the above link). This is 0.1084 Wh/lb/degF, or 429.85Wh/tonne/degC. The plant is to cycle the salt from 565 to 290C which is 275C difference. Thus
the heat extracted would represent 118.2kWh/tonne.

That corresponds to 8.44 tonne/MWh. Unfortunately the Carnot efficiency from converting this heat to steam would probably be, at best, 40% (Coal power stations
and car engines achieve this – just). Thus you would
need 8.44/0.4 = 21.1 tonnes/MWh. Since they intend to capture the steam and cool it, their efficiency would be less, so their figure of 25MHh/tonne is more realistic.

Also their estimate of a 52 Megalitre tank at each of the 217MW plants is correctly dimensioned. I had to check this because nothing in this report can be taken
seriously.

They then (again on p.50) dismiss this as trivial because, whilst extremely large, there are oil tanks this big. The fact that oil weighs half as much as molten salt (1796 tonnes/ cubic metre), and that the molten salt is to be stored at temperatures over 565C is ignored.

The report was written to please the audience they expected to read it. This audience loves to read that
solar power is viable, and available, despite all the
evidence against either of those being true.

This report is embarrassing. I sincerely hope that all academics associated with this report are never, ever, taken seriously again.

David leComte
davidlecomte1954@gmail.com

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David leComte,

Thanks you for this excellent post. We didn’t check these calculations, and didn’t look into the practicality of getting the salt and building and maintaing the tanks to hold 1.5 Mt of salt at temperatures up to 565C.

Just one point about Gemasolar (the spanish plant). It is planned to have 15h of molten salt storage; however, that is just the plan. The plant hasn’t been built yet so we won’t know until it has operating experience.

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Well done David. We didn’t get down to that level of detail in our critique but I am not surprised that such “inconvenient truths” could be scattered throughout the proposal.

And remember in our critique we are suggesting the need for over twice the amount of solar proposed. So the real problems are twice as bad as your calculations.

My first instinct was to suggest someone tables all such “truths” and present them to the ZCA2020 authors for consideration but I suspect it might be a waste of time. It would certainly be a potential embarrassment to some of the learned supporters of the plan.

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David leComte,

My mistake and my apologies. Your comment was about Andersol 1 but I had Gemasloar on my brain and interpreted your comments as referring to Gemasoalr.

You are correct that

The Andersol 1 plant has only 7.5 hours of molten salt storage.

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Hi David,

I saw you your post at Climate Spectator. That’s great. I don’t have other sites to suggest but other BNC’ers might.

Climate Spectator adds several new posts each day, but they usually only keep interest for a day or so, so they do not have the ongoing discussions and history that BNC has.

By the way, you can edit after you post on the Climate Spectator site, which allows you to fix formatting (such as paragraphs and URL) if you want to.

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Nice work David.

Two quick corrects – first, the salt density is 1.796 tonne/cubic metre, and second, its not sea salt. Its a KNO3/NaNO3 mixture, not NaCl.

I wonder what the energy required to produce this much salt is, and the CO2 emissions. As far as I know the nitrate is derived from nitrogen fixed by the Haber Bosch process which basically produces NH3 from atmospheric N2 by combining it with H sourced from fossil CH4, with CO2 as the byproduct. The NH3 is then oxidised to -NO3 which winds up in the salt mix.

52 ML salt mix requires about 1/8th that amount of methane, stoichiometrically, and ignoring energy inputs, or 11674 tonne CH4.

The energy content of methane is 57 kJ/g, or 6.7e17 J in 11674 tonne CH4. At 217 MW and a capacity factor of 20% thats about 6 months worth of the solar plant output just in the stoichiometric nitrogen in the tank. Consider the process energy and you’d be pushing towards about a year’s output of the plant required to produce its storage salt.

Once made, of course, it doesn’t degrade. But it represents a significant up front energy cost and one off CO2 emission.

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I can envision other problems with nitrates though I’m not a chemist just a backyard experimenter. I note ammonium nitrate can explosively dissociate if triggered by a shock. Even in the case of a simple molten salt leak I wonder if potassium nitrate would cause steel and aluminium to burn. That may be just as bad as a sodium leak in an IFR. I take it a thinner and lower melting point fluid is always needed to conduct solar heat to the molten salt reservoir. How long does it take to get a large salt reservoir hot enough to produce steam at night? Not only for the initial startup but after a week of rain.

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Theres no risk of KNO3 or NaNO3 going off like ammonium nitrate. Its quite a different mechanism. I don’t know for sure about combustion of steel or aluminium in the salt, but aluminium will rip the oxygen out of rust, so it wouldn’t surprise me. Heat up time will be of the order of the energy storage time (or a bit longer), if the sun is shining. Call it a week to be sure.

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John:

Thanks for the 1.796 tonnes/cubic metre correction. That was a typo on my part – my calculations regarding the 52 megalitre tank were based on the “salt” reference I used in the comment which report that Hitec Salt is (when molten) 112lb/cubic foot.

The Salt isn’t Sea Salt, and I have no idea why I wrote that? I’ve checked the link in my comment for Hitec “Solar Salt”, and it clearly shows that it has almost no NaCl (< 0.3%)..

Prompted by your correction, I went and looked at the chemical properties of the two active ingredients NaNO3 and KNO3. The combination of the two melts at 220C, but they individually melt at 308 and 334C respectively?

Also KNO3 is supposed to "degenerate into Potassium Nitrite and Oxygen" above 560C. Incredible that when mixed with Sodium Nitrate that this doesn't happen?

Peter:

I'm not sure that the Andasol 1 project has only 7.5 hours of MSS. The wikipedia reference says this, but it also says that the tank has 1010MWh of storage. At
50MW capacity, that is 20 hours of storage. The wikipedia reference gives the dimension of "the tank"
and its dimensions check out with it holding at least
1GWh. (dimensions = 18m high X 36m diameter)

The wikipedia reference may not be accurate.

This reference:
http://www.power-technology.com/projects/andasolsolarpower/

indicates that there are to be three 50MW turbines
(when all three are operational) and that two tanks
will give 7.5 hours for the 3 turbines.

That is starting to make sense, ie if the two tanks hold
28,500T as this reference states, then 1GW/150MW is around 7.5 hours. BUT, the dimension of each of the two tanks is consistent with 1GWh each. They are as per the wikipedia reference, ie 18m X 36m diameter.

So I think this website isn't correct either.

Does anyone have better data on the Andasol 1 project.

Also, the above URL indicates that Andasol 2 is supposed to be operational by now – Is it?

David leComte
davidlecomte1954@gmail.com

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John:

The material cant be pumped until it is in liquid form.

I’m guessing that they may have some intermediate vessel(s )where external heating can be applied to melt enough to keep the pipes flowing.

At the end of each day, the fluid in the pipes and to the heat exchanger might then be dumped into the reservoir?

It would take a long time to heat the reservoir this way though.

David leComte

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Peter Lang:

There is no “p” in my name.

Thank you for those references.

The NREL report clears up some of the confusion though.

Thermal Storage
Storage Type: 2-tank indirect
Storage Capacity: 7.5 hour(s)
Thermal Storage Description: 28,500 tons of molten salt. 60% sodium nitrate, 40% potassium nitrate. 1,010 MWh. Tanks are 14 m high and 36 m in diameter.

The second report suggests a possible explanation as well. (ref p.29)

the use of thermal storage systems: Proposing to use the maximum full load hours and
at the same time increasing the solar share towards 100% requires an increasing storage
capacity. Starting with 7.5 storage hours (planned for Andasol 1) we assume to work
with a 16 hours storage capacity from 2021 which means 24 daily operating hours (see
Figure 3.6).

I think that (possibly) only one tank is being used at present, ie they have only about 14000 tonnes, and that by 2021 they intend to get the second tank operational?

I have been assuming that the tanks are meant to
keep temperatures around 565C. That is an
assumption in the ZCA2020 report otherwise their
25 tonnes/MWh figure makes no sense.

The Andasol report indicates that it can only get 1GWh from 28,800 tonnes. The NREL report states:

Power Block
Turbine Capacity (Net): 49.9 MW
Turbine Manufacturer: Siemens (Germany)
Output Type: Rankine
Power Cycle Pressure: 100.0 bar
Cooling Method: Wet cooling
Cooling Method Description: Cooling towers
Turbine Efficiency: 38.1% @ full load

The Carnot efficiency is 38.1%. That suggests
to me that you have 0.381*28.8 tonnes/MWh = 10.97 tonnes/MWh. A 565- 290C thermal cycle would yield
8.44 tonnes/MWh. I’m guessing that the average temperature of the reservoirs is less than 565 and/or the average minimum temperature is expected to be higher than 290C. Either way, the ZCA2020 figure of 25 tonnes/MWh is 25-30% too low.

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The combination of the two melts at 220C, but they individually melt at 308 and 334C respectively?

Thats right. The mixture melts at a lower temperature than either pure component. The intermediate composition with the lowest melting point is called the eutectic point, hence the term ‘eutectic salt’.

Also KNO3 is supposed to “degenerate into Potassium Nitrite and Oxygen” above 560C. Incredible that when mixed with Sodium Nitrate that this doesn’t happen?

Yes, after I wrote above that the salt mix was stable, I started wondering about the thermal stability of the salt mix. I know its not stable – at high temperature it breaks down as you say, and the sodium nitrate will also. Any moisture in the system would be expected to come out as oxides of nitrogen – potent greenhouse gases and ozone eaters. So some consideration of the salt stability and nitrogen oxides emissions would be interesting.

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