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Future Nuclear Renewables

The Catch-22 of Energy Storage

Pick up a research paper on battery technology, fuel cells, energy storage technologies or any of the advanced materials science used in these fields, and you will likely find somewhere in the introductory paragraphs a throwaway line about its application to the storage of renewable energy.  Energy storage makes sense for enabling a transition away from fossil fuels to more intermittent sources like wind and solar, and the storage problem presents a meaningful challenge for chemists and materials scientists… Or does it?


Guest Post by John Morgan. John is Chief Scientist at a Sydney startup developing smart grid and grid scale energy storage technologies.  He is Adjunct Professor in the School of Electrical and Computer Engineering at RMIT, holds a PhD in Physical Chemistry, and is an experienced industrial R&D leader.  You can follow John on twitter at @JohnDPMorganFirst published in Chemistry in Australia.


Several recent analyses of the inputs to our energy systems indicate that, against expectations, energy storage cannot solve the problem of intermittency of wind or solar power.  Not for reasons of technical performance, cost, or storage capacity, but for something more intractable: there is not enough surplus energy left over after construction of the generators and the storage system to power our present civilization.

The problem is analysed in an important paper by Weißbach et al.1 in terms of energy returned on energy invested, or EROEI – the ratio of the energy produced over the life of a power plant to the energy that was required to build it.  It takes energy to make a power plant – to manufacture its components, mine the fuel, and so on.  The power plant needs to make at least this much energy to break even.  A break-even powerplant has an EROEI of 1.  But such a plant would pointless, as there is no energy surplus to do the useful things we use energy for.

There is a minimum EROEI, greater than 1, that is required for an energy source to be able to run society.  An energy system must produce a surplus large enough to sustain things like food production, hospitals, and universities to train the engineers to build the plant, transport, construction, and all the elements of the civilization in which it is embedded.

For countries like the US and Germany, Weißbach et al. estimate this minimum viable EROEI to be about 7.  An energy source with lower EROEI cannot sustain a society at those levels of complexity, structured along similar lines.  If we are to transform our energy system, in particular to one without climate impacts, we need to pay close attention to the EROEI of the end result.

The EROEI values for various electrical power plants are summarized in the figure.  The fossil fuel power sources we’re most accustomed to have a high EROEI of about 30, well above the minimum requirement.  Wind power at 16, and concentrating solar power (CSP, or solar thermal power) at 19, are lower, but the energy surplus is still sufficient, in principle, to sustain a developed industrial society.  Biomass, and solar photovoltaic (at least in Germany), however, cannot.  With an EROEI of only 3.9 and 3.5 respectively, these power sources cannot support with their energy alone both their own fabrication and the societal services we use energy for in a first world country.

Energy Returned on Invested, from Weißbach et al.,1 with and without energy storage (buffering).  CCGT is closed-cycle gas turbine.  PWR is a Pressurized Water (conventional nuclear) Reactor.  Energy sources must exceed the “economic threshold”, of about 7, to yield the surplus energy required to support an OECD level society.
Energy Returned on Invested, from Weißbach et al.,1 with and without energy storage (buffering).  CCGT is closed-cycle gas turbine.  PWR is a Pressurized Water (conventional nuclear) Reactor.  Energy sources must exceed the “economic threshold”, of about 7, to yield the surplus energy required to support an OECD level society.

These EROEI values are for energy directly delivered (the “unbuffered” values in the figure).  But things change if we need to store energy.  If we were to store energy in, say, batteries, we must invest energy in mining the materials and manufacturing those batteries.  So a larger energy investment is required, and the EROEI consequently drops.

Weißbach et al. calculated the EROEIs assuming pumped hydroelectric energy storage.  This is the least energy intensive storage technology.  The energy input is mostly earthmoving and construction.  It’s a conservative basis for the calculation; chemical storage systems requiring large quantities of refined specialty materials would be much more energy intensive.  Carbajales-Dale et al.2 cite data asserting batteries are about ten times more energy intensive than pumped hydro storage.

Adding storage greatly reduces the EROEI (the “buffered” values in the figure).  Wind “firmed” with storage, with an EROEI of 3.9, joins solar PV and biomass as an unviable energy source.  CSP becomes marginal (EROEI ~9) with pumped storage, so is probably not viable with molten salt thermal storage.  The EROEI of solar PV with pumped hydro storage drops to 1.6, barely above breakeven, and with battery storage is likely in energy deficit.

This is a rather unsettling conclusion if we are looking to renewable energy for a transition to a low carbon energy system: we cannot use energy storage to overcome the variability of solar and wind power.

In particular, we can’t use batteries or chemical energy storage systems, as they would lead to much worse figures than those presented by Weißbach et al.  Hydroelectricity is the only renewable power source that is unambiguously viable.  However, hydroelectric capacity is not readily scaled up as it is restricted by suitable geography, a constraint that also applies to pumped hydro storage.

This particular study does not stand alone.  Closer to home, Springer have just published a monograph, Energy in Australia,3 which contains an extended discussion of energy systems with a particular focus on EROEI analysis, and draws similar conclusions to Weißbach.  Another study by a group at Stanford2 is more optimistic, ruling out storage for most forms of solar, but suggesting it is viable for wind.  However, this viability is judged only on achieving an energy surplus (EROEI>1), not sustaining society (EROEI~7), and excludes the round trip energy losses in storage, finite cycle life, and the energetic cost of replacement of storage.  Were these included, wind would certainly fall below the sustainability threshold.

It’s important to understand the nature of this EROEI limit.  This is not a question of inadequate storage capacity – we can’t just buy or make more storage to make it work.  It’s not a question of energy losses during charge and discharge, or the number of cycles a battery can deliver.  We can’t look to new materials or technological advances, because the limits at the leading edge are those of earthmoving and civil engineering.  The problem can’t be addressed through market support mechanisms, carbon pricing, or cost reductions.  This is a fundamental energetic limit that will likely only shift if we find less materially intensive methods for dam construction.

This is not to say wind and solar have no role to play.  They can expand within a fossil fuel system, reducing overall emissions.  But without storage the amount we can integrate in the grid is greatly limited by the stochastically variable output.  We could, perhaps, build out a generation of solar and wind and storage at high penetration.  But we would be doing so on an endowment of fossil fuel net energy, which is not sustainable.  Without storage, we could smooth out variability by building redundant generator capacity over large distances.  But the additional infrastructure also forces the EROEI down to unviable levels.  The best way to think about wind and solar is that they can reduce the emissions of fossil fuels, but they cannot eliminate them.  They offer mitigation, but not replacement.

Nor is this to say there is no value in energy storage.  Battery systems in electric vehicles clearly offer potential to reduce dependency on, and emissions from, oil (provided the energy is sourced from clean power).  Rooftop solar power combined with four hours of battery storage can usefully timeshift peak electricity demand,3 reducing the need for peaking power plants and grid expansion.  And battery technology advances make possible many of our recently indispensable consumer electronics.  But what storage can’t do is enable significant replacement of fossil fuels by renewable energy.

If we want to cut emissions and replace fossil fuels, it can be done, and the solution is to be found in the upper right of the figure.  France and Ontario, two modern, advanced societies, have all but eliminated fossil fuels from their electricity grids, which they have built from the high EROEI sources of hydroelectricity and nuclear power.  Ontario in particular recently burnt its last tonne of coal, and each jurisdiction uses just a few percent of gas fired power.  This is a proven path to a decarbonized electricity grid.

But the idea that advances in energy storage will enable renewable energy is a chimera – the Catch-22 is that in overcoming intermittency by adding storage, the net energy is reduced below the level required to sustain our present civilization.

BNC Postscript

When this article was published in CiA some readers had difficulty with the idea of a minimum societal EROI.  Why can’t we make do with any positive energy surplus, if we just build more plant?  Hall4 breaks it down with the example of oil:

Think of a society dependent upon one resource: its domestic oil. If the EROI for this oil was 1.1:1 then one could pump the oil out of the ground and look at it. If it were 1.2:1 you could also refine it and look at it, 1.3:1 also distribute it to where you want to use it but all you could do is look at it. Hall et al. 2008 examined the EROI required to actually run a truck and found that if the energy included was enough to build and maintain the truck and the roads and bridges required to use it, one would need at least a 3:1 EROI at the wellhead.

Now if you wanted to put something in the truck, say some grain, and deliver it, that would require an EROI of, say, 5:1 to grow the grain. If you wanted to include depreciation on the oil field worker, the refinery worker, the truck driver and the farmer you would need an EROI of say 7 or 8:1 to support their families. If the children were to be educated you would need perhaps 9 or 10:1, have health care 12:1, have arts in their life maybe 14:1, and so on. Obviously to have a modern civilization one needs not simply surplus energy but lots of it, and that requires either a high EROI or a massive source of moderate EROI fuels.

The point is illustrated in the EROI pyramid.4 (The blue values are published values: the yellow values are increasingly speculative.)

Finally, if you are interested in pumped hydro storage, a previous Brave New Climate article by Peter Lang covers the topic in detail, and the comment stream is an amazing resource on the operational characteristics and limits of this means of energy storage.

References

  1. Weißbach et al., Energy 52 (2013) 210. Preprint available here.
  2. Carbajales-Dale et al., Energy Environ. Sci. DOI: 10.1039/c3ee42125b
  3. Graham Palmer, Energy in Australia: Peak Oil, Solar Power, and Asia’s Economic Growth; Springer 2014.
  4. Pedro Prieto and Charles Hall, Spain’s Photovoltaic Revolution, Springer 2013.

By Barry Brook

Barry Brook is an ARC Laureate Fellow and Chair of Environmental Sustainability at the University of Tasmania. He researches global change, ecology and energy.

642 replies on “The Catch-22 of Energy Storage”

@evcricket

I was rather dubious about nuclear power until I started reading about all the electricity generation methods. I now understand it is one of the least bad technologies.

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David, “least bad” is an excellent way to think about our real-world challenge — we must choose amongst imperfect options, where the ranking is dependent on local conditions. In particular, what would you propose to African leaders as an appropriate portfolio to satisfy rapid growth in demand for affordable, dependable electricity?

> >

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I’m glad there is finely some positive interest in nuclear energy. I offer 2 web sites:
1) http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA378.html
2)www.skirsck.com/politics/globalwarming/ifr.htm
I have no idea what the EROEI would be with the Integral Fast Reactor (IFR) but the fact we could use our current nuclear waste and we have enough uranium mined to last 500 or more years should make the ratio quite high.

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Steve Darden — Depends on the country. South Africa needs abundant power for industry so nuclear power plants should be under consideration. Egypt was laying plans for a 4 reactor site but with the changes in government those plans are probably on hold. I opine Tunesia could use nuclear.

Kenya has an excellent site for wind turbines; I am under the impression that it is being developed. I understand Malawi also has plenty of wind.

Here is another site describing fast reactors:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Current-and-Future-Generation/Fast-Neutron-Reactors/
In general it seems that these are not yet ready for wide deployment.

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Stop the press!
“The resulting EROI is therefore roughly 2000 which is 20-1000 times higher than that of any other
technique [12]. This is due to the very compact design, lowering the construction energy demand
down almost to the level of CCGT plants on a per-watt basis, and the fuel-related are tiny compared to
light water reactors due to the efficient usage. Optimizing the design and extracting the fuel at basic
crust concentrations (~10 ppm for Thorium) leads to a domination of the fuel-related input, showing
that the DFR exhausts the potential of nuclear fission to a large extent.”

Click to access FR13_T1-CN-199-481.pdf

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‘EclipseNow’ writes,

… IAEA report concludes:

The Primary and Final Energy EROI values calculated for the representative scenario were ∼ 52 and 24, respectively.

A critic might argue bias, but that’s a logical error called a Bulverism. We must first prove the argument wrong, before trying to explain why someone became so silly! ;-)

Also, which way would the bias be? Does a government outfit’s having “Atomic” in its name inevitably mean it favours nuclear energy, or is “Follow the money” still a valid way of predicting bias, validly applicable to the money government outfits net from fossil fuel consumers and producers?

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Lenzen’s work is widely critized even outside peer reviewed circles. Lenzen’s estimates heavily weigh Storm and Smith data that is widely discredited and not verifiable. Lenzen overestimates energy intensity of enrichment, overestimates mining energy correlations (storm smith nonsense), does double counting of energy costs (GDP tricks etc), and likely even counts energy thermal vs electrical incorrectly (thus overestimating certain inputs by a factor of 3, due to nuclear plant 33% efficiency).

http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/08/energy-return-for-nuclear-energy.html

Like EP has proven, it is easy to rebut this nonsense by looking at energy intensity of mining and comparing it to the value of uranium on the spot market. Mining is mostly electricity and diesel, so much worse than EP showed in the case of coal cost. If you follow the Storm and Smith data, they are suggesting that a single uranium mine in Namibia uses more energy than the whole of Namibia!!

Also all of this is missing the point about the future. If we are going to build more nuclear plants we will build the most recent and efficient ones, with higher burnup and higher thermal to electrical efficiency. We will build the most recent centrifuge technology not more diffusion plants. Diffusion plants are all being phased out over the next 20 years because their energy costs are prohibitive. This is the problem with meta-studies. They are not good for making policy for the future.

For policy purposes we should compare the EROEI of AP1000s and ESBWRs (recently fully certified by the US NRC) running on centrifuge enrichment. Because that is what a large expansion of nuclear energy right now would entail.

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Its fun to consider what some of these “scientists” like Lenzen and Storm and Smith are saying.

They are saying that the Rossing Mine in Namibia, which uses poor grade ore, has to guzzle very roughly 0.1 kWh thermal for each kWh electrical nuclear plant output.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B6ssing_uranium_mine

This mine makes 3711 tonnes of uranium oxide per year. It takes about 250 tonnes of that stuff to fuel a 1 GWe nuclear plant round the clock for a year. So, with these assumptions, the 3711 tons production is good for some 15 gigawatts of nuclear plant output (enough to power my entire country). Then, the Rossing mine must use at least 1.5 gigawatts, constantly, year round, according to Lenzen and his co-conspirators. That’s giga, as in billion Watts!! How much energy is that, well it is 47,300,000 gigajoules of energy. That’s over a million tonnes of diesel, for example. That’s what Lenzen is claiming this mine is using. This man, Lenzen, supposedly a serious and well renowned scientist, is claiming that this single mine is guzzling energy at the rate of a megacity.

Fortunately the Rossing mine reports its total energy consumption. It is below 150 MJ/ton uranium oxide, so below 500 GJ for 3711 tonnes uranium oxide.

http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/rossingsouth-uranium/

So Lenzing is off by a factor of several THOUSAND.

Some scientist, if an amateur like me can poke holes in him with 10 minutes of googling and a laptop.

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@ cyril
quoting your reference
In 2008, the mine used energy of 14.09mj/t of ore processed higher than the annual target of 117mj/t of ore processed.

huh? 14 is higher than 117? And this is ore processed, you said it was uranium oxide.

BNC MODERATOR
Your last sentence has been deleted. BNC does not engage in Climate Change denialism. Please check the Commenting Rules before posting again.

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The Rossing data can also be used as a worst case (very low grade ore) energy consumption for mining. A million GJ of mining energy input is 0.03 GW thermal input. To support 15 GW electrical power plants worth of uranium!

That’s about a 500 to 1 return in energy, or a “mining EROEI” of 500.

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And finally, of course, GhG emissions from mining. The Rossing mine reports around 75 tonnes CO2eq per tonne of U3O8. Over 3711 tonnes U3O8 this is 278325 tonnes CO2eq. For 15 GWe-year, this is 18555 tonnes per GWe-year which is 2 grams of CO2 per kWh.

2 grams CO2 per kWh. This is the “significant amount” of greenhouse gas emissions produced by mining uranium that supposed scientists like Lenzen warn us about, and that supposed peer reviewers, which are also supposed to be scientists, have failed to check.

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@Cyril, from you second “corrected reference” about halfway down, the chart it clearly show 2009 levels at 500GJ per ton U3O8 produced.

Then you state 500GJ for the full 3711 tonnes produced?

And in 2013 they have jumped up to 700GJ per ton U3O8….see they have became 40% worse in imput energy.
They also fail to include all the energy inputs, for instance the energy to create and transport all of their explosive devices is not part of their “energy input”
BNC MODERATOR
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“Power to Save the World; The Truth About Nuclear Energy” by Gwyneth Cravens, 2007 Finally a truthful book about nuclear power.

Page 13 has a chart of greenhouse gas emissions from electricity production. Nuclear power produces less greenhouse gas [CO2] than any other source, including coal, natural gas, hydro, solar and wind. Building wind turbines and towers also involve industrial processes such as concrete and steel making.

Wind turbines produce a total of 58 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.

Nuclear power plants produce a total of 30 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour, the lowest.

Coal plants produce the most, between 966 and
1306 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.

Solar power produces between 100 and 280 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.

Hydro power produces 240 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.

Natural gas produces between 439 and 688 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.

Remember the total is the sum of direct emissions from burning fuel and indirect emissions from the life cycle, which means the industrial processes required to build it. Again, nuclear comes in the lowest.

The enrichment process in the US takes a lot of the 30 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour because we still use the WW2 gas diffusion plant for enrichment. Centrifuges use less power and future methods will use even less energy to enrich uranium. The latest method I have heard of uses a laser to ionize U235 only and extract by electrostatic action. The 3 extra neutrons are enough to change the spectrum of absorption/emission slightly.

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“Nuclear power plants produce a total of 30 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour, the lowest.”

Sounds way too high.

Like I showed, mining is 2 grams CO2/kWh using the worst grade uranium being mined today.

Construction is about 1 gram/kWh (for 40 year life).

Enrichment is less than 1 gram/kWh if it is powered by nuclear, as in France, and which it will in a nuclear powered world. Remember, we are not interested in powering nuclear enrichment facilities with coal fired powerplants. That’s just being silly. We are interested in how far to push nuclear. In a nuclear powered world I expect mining to be about 1 gram CO2/kWh and construction about 0.1 gram/kWh (nuclear powered steel and cement making).

But I think we can justify 5 grams CO2/kWh while we are making the transition, and 1-2 grams CO2/kWh when we are nuclear powered.

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“Solar power produces between 100 and 280 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour.”

Interestingly it turns out there are no solar powered solar cell factories or solar powered solar module assembly plants. The power comes from coal primarily and fossil fuels almost totally. This is the main reason for their high CO2 emissions. They are produced with fossil, transported with fossil, and installed and serviced with more fossil power and liquid fuels.

This tells us something about how serious solar is as an energy source. Similarly there are no wind powered wind turbine manufacturing facilities. What does this tell us about the application of solar and wind as industrial scale energy solutions?

Nuclear enrichment facilities (most energy intensive step in the nuclear cycle) are often powered by their own nuclear reactors. This was the case in France until recently when they replaced the gaseous diffusion plant with more efficient gas centrifuges. This freed up 3-4 nuclear reactors (!) to feed to the grid again rather than powering the antiquated diffusion plant.

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I think that there are NO diffusion plants left in the world now. Here is a quote from the World Nuclear Association:
“The Paducah plant had a capacity of 8 million SWU/yr, compared with the 12.7 million SWU/yr required by the 104 then operational US reactors. The Paducah plant closed at the end of May 2013 after more than 60 years operation.”

Paducah was the last diffusion plant running.

Any energy calculation using numbers from a diffusion plant are really out of date!

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“Cyril, it looks like they deleted your rebuttal — or never posted it. Is there a moderation period?”

Yes, there is. And its still early in Germany, to be fair…

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“quoting your reference
In 2008, the mine used energy of 14.09mj/t of ore processed higher than the annual target of 117mj/t of ore processed.

huh? 14 is higher than 117? And this is ore processed, you said it was uranium oxide.”

14 plus 117 is higher than 117. But yes, this is for raw ore processed, the second ref is better as it considers the more pure U3O8.

“Then you state 500GJ for the full 3711 tonnes produced?”

That was my error, which I corrected later. Multiply by 3711 tonnes to get the total mine consumption which is around 1 million GJ. This is an order of magnitude lower than what Lenzen is saying the mine is using.

“And in 2013 they have jumped up to 700GJ per ton U3O8….see they have became 40% worse in imput energy.”

Nope. The most recent year was lower energy per ton than the year before. They are doing planned expansion, repair etc work in the mine and also the ore grade varies so the energy use varies. Averaging 600 GJ/ton over longer periods it seems. No real increasing energy consumption trend is seen overall.

“They also fail to include all the energy inputs, for instance the energy to create and transport all of their explosive devices is not part of their “energy input””

Explosive devices are a small extra energy source in mining. Operating the heavy machinery is far more energy intensive. Though you can add a generous extra energy if you are worried. It hardly matters with mining EROEI of 500. Say they use as much explosive as they use other thermal input fuels. Then the mining EROEI changes to 250. Still huge.

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“I think that there are NO diffusion plants left in the world now.”

Looks like you’r right Martin! This is a very good argument for us to criticise all EROEI/LCA studies using diffusion in the mix (which is most of the previous ones).

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Ok lets do a reality check.

The energy sinks in the nuclear cycle are clearly mining and enrichment; everything else is totally marginal (construction materials, fuel fabrication energy return is enormous, >1000).

A kg of U3O8 makes about 50000 kWh of electricity in a modern nuclear light water reactor (most of it actually goes to enrichment tailing rather than actually physically ending up in reactor fuel).

To get that kg, we have expended 600 GJ/ton or 600 MJ/kg at the Rossing mine using poor grade ore. This is 167 kWh/kg U3O8. Lets make that 200 kWh to account for explosives used if the previous commenter was right (this is a LOT of explosives, hundreds of thousands of gigajoules worth, and would actually blow the mine apart but lets use it as a conservative estimate).

The other big fish is enrichment. Modern centrifuge uses 50 kWh per SWU and about 50 SWU./kWh for modern fuel enrichment levels. This leads us to invest 250 kWh per kg of reactor fuel. Fortunately this is not so much in terms of the more volumous initial U3O8, it should be roughly 20 kWh/kg U3O8.

So we have added the two dominant energy sinks with conservative margin. But we only have invested 220 kWh of thermal/chemical energy and we got 50000 kWh of electrical energy in return.

This suggests EROEI must be at least 200 using the worst ore grade fuel today and today’s enrichment mix (no more diffusion) and modern LWRs.

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In case you’re wondering; if embodied energy of materials is 10000 times less than the life plant output, then that means the energy input is (50000/10000) = 5 kWh per kg U3O8.

So, inputs:
mining: 200 kWh
enrichment: 20 kWh
construction 5 kWh is 225 kWh out of 50000 kWh yield.

Total input: 225 kWh.

Output: 50000 kWh of electricity.

EROEI 222.

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I checked the Lenzen paper again. He multiplies all electrical input by a factor of 3 to account for effciency; assuming it comes from a nuclear reactor then. But Lenzen considers only electrical output for the EROEI of the nuclear plant, so this is an unfair factor. It is already included in the fact that Lenzen measures electrical output. So Lenzen exaggerates all electrical inputs by a factor of 3. Lenzen exaggerates uranium centrifuge energy need by a factor of 3-4. Lenzen exaggerates mining energy by an order of magnitude but chooses to ignore real data from a real mine and in stead use statistical tricks of made up correlations and extrapolations.

Lenzen further claims that average of fuel fabrication is about 3000 GJ/tonU. Or 3000 MJ/kg. For comparison the energy needed to VAPORIZE uranium metal is 1.75 MJ/kg.

http://crescentok.com/staff/jaskew/isr/ptable/92.htm

So what Lenzen is saying is that fuel fabrication of uranium requires an energy input that is equivalent to vaporizing all of the uranium ONE THOUSAND AND SEVEN HUNDRED TIMES OVER. Uh-hu.

What a disappointment.
BNCMODERATOR
Your comment has been edited to remove a pejorative remark about another as per BNC Comments Policy.

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Cyril – It’s enough to point out the fellow’s numbers are wrong. You have to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they just got something wrong, not that they are actively lying. There are some actual liars out there, but most people in this debate are one or more of badly informed, cognitively biased, used poor sources, or simply made mistakes. Has anyone here tried engaging Lenzen about his paper, pointing out (politely) that there is good reason to think that his numbers simply cannot be right?

Anyway thank you all for another enlightening discussion.

One thing I wanted to clarify: Engineer-Poet posted embodied energy numbers for steel and concrete. Do those include the ore-mining aspects, or are they just manufacturing energy? I assume the former otherwise it’s not very useful, but the post did not clarify.

Like pp251 I am not convinced yet that renewables + storage is impossible (whilst maintaining approx current civilisation level), but it is clear that there are significant challenges, and people need to do their sums right.
BNC MODERATOR
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It appears that reading through peer reviewed energy analysis and finding massive and elementary errors in the analysis makes me lose my temper. Perhaps it is just a form of disappointment in seeing the scientific system fail at times. I don’t know Lenzen personally.

Good point also about the mining energy. I haven’t yet seen a study that includes mine energy though most studies include ore preparation.

It appears to not matter anything because the energy is so small compared to reducing the oxygen away….

Click to access Open-Pit-Mines-1939B-Eng.pdf

Typical value looks to be 35000 kWh/kiloton. This is 0.126 GJ/ton. Definately in the margin of error bars for iron and steel production, which is very senstive to things like the assumption on how much steel is recycled, plant efficiency etc. Worst case with no recycled material and old crappy steel mills you get 40 GJ/ton but that’s not a representative situation. I think E-Ps 20 GJ/ton is a bit low but there are modern plants that operate with that performance. Full recycled steel smelters are much lower than 15 GJ/ton for example.

I’ve started doing my own rough LCA and here is what I came up with so far:

http://www.energyfromthorium.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=4449&p=59815#p59815

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Cyril, for someone so deeply concerned about scientific rigour, you spend an awful lot of time saying “that is so small it doesn’t matter”. I’m sure it’s just another form of rigour, ignoring things.

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I have been following the discussion of energy needed to produce energy. The more detailed the discussion becomes for more interesting it becomes. We get to think about recycling steel as a way to save energy and which technology is used to enrich uranium and how carbon intensive the electricity is. If we make something in France instead of China less CO2 is produced because the electricity is almost carbon free.

Is there a way to think about the amount of CO2 generated to build or run a nuclear plant? The type of cement would make a difference and where things were made would make a difference. Each plant would be different.

If our goal is to lower CO2 use, then calculating how much we use seems reasonable but really difficult.

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Martin, yes it is possible to calculate the amount of CO2 generated to build and operate a nuclear plant. It is called life cycle analysis, LCA. The amount of CO2 generated by the construction of the nuclear plant is around 1 gram CO2 per kWh.

The LCAs provided in the links in this thread provide detailed data on real plants like the Forsmark plant.

I will add a CO2 balance in my own rough LCA later on. I already have the major material streams so it is not so hard.

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“Cyril, for someone so deeply concerned about scientific rigour, you spend an awful lot of time saying “that is so small it doesn’t matter”. I’m sure it’s just another form of rigour, ignoring things.”

In LCA, yes that is rigour. Its important to get 90+% of the inputs to get a reasonable estimate. Its important to show that certain things are small, unless it is blatantly obvious that it is. For example the embodied energy of the toothbrushes of the workers of a nuclear plant need not be considered. You could do that on account of rigour, but the LCA would become unreadable.

In the case of mining iron ore its not so obvious that this is a tiny energy input so it is good to figure it out. According to the source I provided the mining energy is less than 0.2 GJ/ton steel. Consider my working example of the ESBWR:

http://www.energyfromthorium.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=4449

0.2 GJ/ton times 50,000 ton steel is 10,000 GJ input. The output is
2,639,563,200 GJ.

Thus this input is two hundred and sixty thousand times smaller than the output. This doesn’t change the EROEI at all. Remember, EROEI is not given in ten decimal spaces behind the comma.

I hope you can see the difference between ignoring a 0.0003% factor vs counting the biggest inputs 300 and 1000% (Lenzen electricity and mining input) or even 10000% (Lenzen fuel fabrication error).

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@Cyril

“Interestingly it turns out there are no solar powered solar cell factories or solar powered solar module assembly plants. The power comes from coal primarily and fossil fuels almost totally. This is the main reason for their high CO2 emissions. They are produced with fossil, transported with fossil, and installed and serviced with more fossil power and liquid fuels.”

A factory which fabricates all the steel, concrete, fibreglass and electrical parts of windturbines, situated in a windy location and surrounded by a windfarm to power it, and outputting wind turbines ready for delivery and assembly would be impressive to see and a PR triumph. BUT it would very rarely run at full output and mostly run at less-to-considerably-less than full output, and very likely be located somewhere inconvenient for product shipment.

A facility where all the elements are purified and componentry printed for solar PV panels and DC inverters, which are then assembled and exported – powered by, you guessed it, a wide warehouse roof (or 2, or 3?) of panels would similarly be positive. Obviously day-shift work, plus weekends, with days in lieu due to clouds and a seasonal workforce (less output in winter).

Both factories would be unfeasible due to largely idle plant.

What about a factory for fabricating SMRs? 50-100 MWe units, built on airplane-style assembly lines from steel etc. made in an on-site foundry, all powered by a unit of the same design, which also powers the co-sited fuel manufacturing facility. Full shift rotation output, located where ever there’s a port- or rail-side community that listens to knowledge over paranoia and fearmongering. Scheduled outages every 2 years or so for refueling.

We may never see such an entirely self-contained factory but it is hugely more realistic, and would be brilliant PR.

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Yes, a self powered SMR factory is entirely realistic. It would also mean no grid connection is needed. With my case of the ESBWR though it isn’t so easy. 1550 MWe is a bit much power to put away into a factory. As most of the energy demand of construction is actually in the process of making the metals, the near equivalent of a “self powered factory” would be nuclear steelmaking. That’s hard, though. Mining the uranium is even more energy intenstive than all the materials of construction combined, so a SMR in a mine + as much equipment electrified as possible, would be more useful in lifecycle terms than powering the SMR factory itself with a SMR.

Enrichment plants are often powered by their own nuclear reactors. Well, actually that was the case with the wasteful diffusion plants; today the dedicated enrichment reactors are freed up to power the grid. In the case of Tricastin in France, when they closed the diffusion plant recently they freed up a massive 3000 MWe of nuclear reactor capacity that was used to power the diffusion process! Whoever said that nuclear and negawatts don’t go together?

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Also I should stress that the inputs in the nuclear cycle are tiny. So even if all of it is diesel and coal, and we power all the world except the nuclear fuel cycle with LWRs (which is a silly argument of course!) then the CO2 emission and fossil fuel usage would still be tiny and totally acceptable.

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“Cyril, maybe you should put all this research into a paper that can be reviewed by your peers?”

I prefer open science approach. Anyone can comment on this forum and the Energy From Thorium Forum. Once the LCA is complete maybe I’ll make a single PDF or XCEL file.

My faith in peer review (limited number of people reviewing, no transparency toward the outside world) has taken a beating in recent years. It appears there are too many scientists with double agendas especially in the field of nuclear and solar energy analysis.

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Weissbach would certainly qualify for having a double agenda. He deliberately used decades old data for wind and solar to make them look bad. His other papers also make it clear that he’s not interested in research but nuclear propaganda.

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“Weissbach would certainly qualify for having a double agenda. He deliberately used decades old data for wind and solar to make them look bad. His other papers also make it clear that he’s not interested in research but nuclear propaganda.”

Partly agree. Not on the nuclear part – EROEI of 75 is too low based on both my own research (215) and official LCAs (220 ish).

It isn’t clear what the assumptions are on the lower EROEI, so its hard to dissect all of the Weissbach info.

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One guy claimed thin-film solar PV was now so much more energy efficient to produce that it would have an EROEI of about 75. Which begs the question: when does the renewable ERoEI get high enough to subsidise storage ERoEI?

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If you have energy inputs for storage then you can just subtract that amount from solar EROEI.

Where did you find the claim that thin-film PV has EROEI of 75? Based on Carbajales-Dale paper it’s about 30-40.

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EN, nearly all EROI-PV analyses are only looking at the energy return based on the IEA-PVPS guidelines. These high figures are not surprising. Weisbach, Prieto and Hall, and myself have tried to take a broader systems-based approach. If you do this, the more energy efficient manufacture of PV panels obeys the law-of-diminishing-returns where the system and system and storage energy dominates, see my figure here –

Click to access EiA_figure_23.pdf

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Hi PPP251, it was just a blogger raving over at Cleantechnica. I didn’t find any evidence for the claim, but it set me to wondering.

What if the thin films are 30 to 40? The ERoEI would be ten times better than the ERoEI 1:1 listed above. We’re talking maybe an overall energy return of 9 to 10, as good as solar thermal + storage, or better if we take the higher ERoEI or 40? It’s not the overall ERoEI of 12 that the modern world requires, but I don’t know how they came up with that figure. What are the assumptions? Does that include a car-heavy society like America, or one that uses half the oil / capita like Europe? What if we wanted to move away from car-based society anyway: for health and community and traffic and city design reasons. Then we wouldn’t have to waste all that energy charging up whatever alternative to oil we adopt. (Whether batteries or hydrogen or boron or other synfuels).

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The article assumes a Solar PV EROEI of 3.9, which is then reduced to 1.6 with storage. What if we’re talking about thin-film solar PV at an ERoEI of 60? Then (from an ERoEI point of view only, not considering economics) Solar PV would be 24.61.
A civilisation of thin-film solar PV covering every rooftop and massive fields in the desert, with huge pumped seawater hydro “batteries” for backup, then becomes an option, ERoEI-wise at least. It would probably be vastly easier and cheaper to whack in some nukes: but that is not the focus of this article.

“Vasilis Fthenakis of Brookhaven National Laboratory has a study showing an EROEI of 60 for thin film solar in the USA Southwest based on First Solar’s 11.9% efficient panels in 2009.[8] The solar cell level efficiency as of August 2014 is 21% for First Solar.[9] In addition, he has co-authored another paper demonstrating that if one uses a consistent methodology, solar photovoltaic EROEI matches that of fossil fuels.[10]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested#cite_note-7

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EN, you’re not following the maths, and you didn’t look at my figure above ! :)

The whole point of John’s article is that the storage embodied energy needs to be added to the system energy – it doesn’t matter whether the PV panel EROI is 10:1 or 1,000,000:1, the storage and other system energies dominate the resulting EROI once you assume the storage is going to be an essential part of the system.

put simply, EROI = Output / (PV + batt)

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Eclipse Now — Using

Eroi = Out/(PV+storage)

suppose Eroi(storage alone) = 2.0. Even supposing PV is free, then the resulting combination cannot exceed 2.0. To do well, the storage efficency has to go way up.

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What? That makes no sense. How can we possibly say that Solar PV of ERoEI 4 + storage = 1.6, but thin film with an ERoEI of 60 is still in trouble? How did it get the ERoEI of 60? Greater output? Longer lifespan for greater output? Vastly more efficient production? Assuming output is the same and the solar PV is just vastly, vastly more efficient to make, we’re dividing the solar PV portion by 15 times less ERoEI.

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How did it get the ERoEI of 60?

Thin film uses much less material and it’s much less energy intensive than silicon. Cell efficiency has also significantly improved in recent years. This is how EROEI has improved. That being said 60 still seems a bit high, but 30-40 is entirely plausible.

The biggest uncertainty is what are energy requirements for storage. This is further complicated because storage is not integrated in a straightforward way.

For example Denmark is dumping their excess wind power into district heating system, and when wind calms down they fire up cogeneration. How do you account energy requirements for this kind of system? District heating would be there in any case.

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Eclipse Now — Sorry this doees not make sense to you. But once the cost of PV is sufficently low (so that its Eroi is very high) then the (low) Eroi of storage dominates in the combined system.

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Fireofenergy, why are you counting the capacity factor again? Surely that’s already factored into the ERoEI number. That’s what ERoEI means: how much energy it returns divided by the energy cost to make it. How much energy it returns has to have the CF & average performance already built in.

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I believe the low Esoi of storage to dominate according to the inverse of the energy source’s Capacity Factor. If solar with Eroei of 10 has a CF of 20% then (without vast regional distances) 4/5ths of the setup must be for storage (and if without input from other sources). If the storage was ammonia at, say an Esoi of 0.5, then (I think) the overall Eroei is only 1. The math (I think) being the 0.2 amount of solar to charge all the storage at 0.5 is to simply multiply the two and then multiply that by the source’s Eroei… .2x.5×10=1

If the storage was a LiFePO4 battery at, say 10, Then 0.2 x 10 x 10 for an overall … error of 20, a higher than original Eroei!

Somebody, please help…

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Nevermind… If Eroei is 1000 watts and the ratio is 10, then it takes 100 watts to make source. If that source requires 5x that amount to be stored for 24/7 reliable supply, then 500 watts required. If the Esoi of that storage is 10, then just 50 watts additional needed plus whatever extra to account for inefficiency.
power in = Eroei x CF + 1/Esoi ???

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That’s what I was trying to get at but it does take more energy to make the system to make up for capacity factor.
(apologies for clogging the board with messed up math). I think the problem is me trying to confuse the actual watts input as compared to an efficiency equation.

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OK, just did an exercise and I can finally see how Eroi = Out/(PV+storage) really kills it from ever going baseload with today’s technology. Even if they double efficiency to 40% of sunlight, the whole system will still not have a high enough ERoEI. I was so excited about that 60, but it’s not 15 times more output, just 15 times less costly to make. That’s the difference. OK. If they make it cheap enough, it might be able to reduce ‘gold plating’ of the grid, but it will never go baseload.

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fireofenergy, if you’re interested in how ESOI changes EROI then the math is as follows. Let’s assume ESOI of 10 (as in lithium batteries) and EROI of 20 (as in silicon PV).

Buffered EROI = (unbuffered EROI – X) / (1 + X),

where X is part of energy return that is needed to produce storage. It’s basically just EROI / ESOI.

So in my case we get buffered EROI = 6. If thin film PV is used (EROI = 35) then we get 7, so not much difference. Low ESOI dominates. If you use pumped hydro (ESOI = 200) and thin film, then we get about 30, which is much better.

So in order to have high buffered EROI high ESOI is required. Batteries are not good (though they may have other uses). Pumped hydro, compressed air and electrolysis (chemical storage in general) are suitable for this task.

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OK, just did an exercise and I can finally see how Eroi = Out/(PV+storage) really kills it from ever going baseload with today’s technology.

Today’s storage is a consequence of historical energy sources. New energy sources will lead to new technologies. You may want to check some of these:

SustainX – compressed air storage (reuses heat)
Lightsail – another version of compressed air with heat reuse
Isentropic – pumped heat storage
Highview – liquid air storage

All of these have low material requirements and could be deployed anywhere locally. When there’s enough demand some of these technologies will hit the market.

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A little reality check…

If we assume 1 week of storage, this is 7×24 = 168 kWh per kWp solar PV.

If we assume battery of 0.1 kWh/kg, then 1680 kg of battery are needed for every kWp of PV.

If we assume battery to have an embodied energy of 50 MJ/kg (?) then to make the battery we need 50×1680 = 84000 MJ of energy.

That’s a lot.

A kWp of PV, at a good location makes 1500 kWh per year, 5400 MJ.

So for the PV to regain the energy needed to make the battery, the PV and the battery must operate for 15.55 years at 100% efficiency.

Since the battery can’t operate that long and at that efficiency, this suggests that at the scale of powering a nation, the amount of energy storage makes PV powered countries have EROEI below 1.

It would be interesting to see the comparison for a week of pumped hydro storage.

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Cyril, battery embodied energy seems fine (this paper says that PbA requires about 25MJ/kg and Lion about 150MJ/kg), but your assumption about one week of storage per 1 kWp is dubious at best. Why not 10 kWp? Or 100 kWp? If you want to charge 168kWh battery with 1kWp PV you won’t get anywhere. But you will get with 10kWp or 100kWp.

Also battery lifetime mostly depends on number of cycles, not age. Assume PbA has 1000 cycles at 33% discharge and 75% efficiency. This implies that during it’s lifetime 1kWh of storage could store 500kWh of electricity. This is the main factor determining battery life.

1kWh PbA battery weighs about 20kg, so you need about 500MJ or 140kWh to produce it (numbers from link above). 1kWp PV would return this energy in less than a year. If you want 100kWh battery and 1kWp PV then energy is returned in 10 years.

But I doubt that anyone would consider 1kWp PV and 100kWh battery. That’s a factor of 100. Germany has annual 600TWh electricity demand and they calculated that they need 30TWh of storage capacity to get through cloudy windless days. That’s a factor of 0.05. This is what simulations show.

This aspect is also interesting: PbA can store 500kWh but it needs 140kWh to make it. This gives you ESOI (energy stored on energy invested) of about 3.5. Some published papers say it’s about 2, which is close enough.

Low ESOI significantly reduces buffered EROI, as I’ve already written above. Lithium has ESOI of about 10 (due to more cycles and better efficiency), but that’s still very low compared to pumped hydro and compressed air (200+).

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Just a minor correction: 1kWp PV (1000kWh per annum) and 100kWh battery is the same ratio as 600TWh per annum and 60TWh battery. Fraunhofer simulations have shown that 30TWh of storage capacity is needed for Germany.

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“your assumption about one week of storage per 1 kWp is dubious at best. Why not 10 kWp? Or 100 kWp? If you want to charge 168kWh battery with 1kWp PV you won’t get anywhere. But you will get with 10kWp or 100kWp.”

Because, that is a week of storage, which is the amount you’d need to power a modern civilization with a high reliability from the sun. You also need a huge overbuild of panels on top of that to account for winter, which I haven’t considered yet.

“Also battery lifetime mostly depends on number of cycles, not age. ”

Wrong, it depends on both. Batteries have a cycle life and shelf life. If you use them often, the cycle life becomes the limit. If you use them not so often, the shelf life becomes the limit. Batteries will not last 15 years on average for an inservice application, even for a rarely used backup this is optimistic.

“1kWh PbA battery weighs about 20kg, so you need about 500MJ or 140kWh to produce it (numbers from link above). 1kWp PV would return this energy in less than a year. If you want 100kWh battery and 1kWp PV then energy is returned in 10 years.”

Thanks for the numbers, basically the same conclusion. So 10 years of output just to cover the battery, which has a shelf life of around 10 years so EROEI near 1, and we only have a couple days worth of battery which isn’t enough. We’re not going to do this:

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/08/nation-sized-battery/

“But I doubt that anyone would consider 1kWp PV and 100kWh battery. That’s a factor of 100. Germany has annual 600TWh electricity demand and they calculated that they need 30TWh of storage capacity to get through cloudy windless days. That’s a factor of 0.05. This is what simulations show.”

Wrong again. 1 year and one hour are entirely different time units, newsflash!

0.05 year = 438 hours of storage. a LOT more than you and I calculated here. Clearly we are underestimating!!

“This aspect is also interesting: PbA can store 500kWh but it needs 140kWh to make it.”

Another poor performance figure indicating that PV with battery storage is no good for powering countries.

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Because, that is a week of storage, which is the amount you’d need to power a modern civilization with a high reliability from the sun.

It’s an arbitrarily chosen number. You could just as easily have picked a week of storage per 10kWp PV and energy return would have dropped significantly.

Another poor performance figure indicating that PV with battery storage is no good for powering countries.

That’s true at present, but in future it may change. Lithium ion chemistry has already shown in transportation sector that it can outperform combustion engine. The same may happen in grid energy storage.

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ppp251, I don’t understand what “x” is. I used “1” because that is the “part” of 10 that is used to make the storage. I came up with 9.5 (instead of 6). We can’t just divide EROI by ESOI (20/10= just 2). I guess that part would always be the “1” out of whatever ESOI and thus leads me to believe I don’t really understand it.

The third variable, capacity factor, would seem to have a major role and would seem to have to be part of an equation, along with efficiency of storage.

Thanks, I might get it eventually!

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“It’s an arbitrarily chosen number. You could just as easily have picked a week of storage per 10kWp PV and energy return would have dropped significantly.”

No, EROEI is the same because the per Watt output is the same for the 10 kWp as it is for the 1 kWp.

A week of storage for 10 kWp is 1680 kWh. A week of storage of 1 kWp is 168 kWh. The “one week of storage” is storage Wh per Wp panel you have.

The number of one week is arbitrary, but it is also too small as the Fraunhofer data shows, you need 400+ hours of storage, more like 2-3 weeks than 1 week. So you’d need a complicated system with partial battery and partial inefficient hydrogen storage of some sort. You’d then have quadruple systems, overbuild of PV plus overbuild in battery plus overbuild in long term hydrogen storage plus fossil backup. Completely inefficient, costly and unrealistic.

“That’s true at present, but in future it may change. Lithium ion chemistry has already shown in transportation sector that it can outperform combustion engine. The same may happen in grid energy storage.”

Your own reference showed Li-ion to require 150 MJ/kg rather than the 25 MJ/kg of PbA, and the energy density improvement doesn’t make up for it. So Li-ion would need a far larger

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That’s true at present, but in future it may change

Lead acid (PbA) has the lowest embodied energy of the major chemistries, lithium is still way behind PbA, and pumped hydro is much, much better than both of these. We can turn this problem around and look at it in different ways, try out different scenarios, imagine a smart grid, but the basic conclusion seems to always point in the same direction – storage kills the EROI of PV no matter how cheap the PV becomes.

Better distributed storage will enable solar to provide a valuable network support role, and this is where we should be targeting our efforts. However the underlying EROI problem would seem to preclude PV from a primary or baseload role, the sooner this is recognised the better so we can move on.

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fireofenergy, you can try to think of it this way: EROI of 20 means that it takes 1 year to pay the energy back, then you have additional 20 years of energy surplus.

ESOI of 10 similarly means that it takes 1 year of storage to cover for material needs, then you have 10 additional years of storage for other use. That’s the same as 2 years to cover for material needs and 20 years for other use (we want to have the same lifespan as in EROI).

Actually I realized a small correction needs to be added to my formula, we need to normalize ESOI to total of 21 years (instead of 22). So we get about 1.9 years to cover for material needs and 19.1 years of additional storage. I hope this correction won’t confuse things even more.

So if you have EROI of 20 and you add ESOI of 10 (normalized to 21 year lifetime) then you need in total 2.9 years for energy payback, but you only have 18.1 years left for other use. So buffered EROI becomes 18.1/2.9 = 6.2.

Hope this makes sense.

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No, EROEI is the same because the per Watt output is the same for the 10 kWp as it is for the 1 kWp.

EROI of PV without storage is the same, but buffered EROI is not the same. It’s different if you have 1kWp of PV and 168kWh battery, or if you have 10kWp of PV and 168kWh battery.

The number of one week is arbitrary, but it is also too small as the Fraunhofer data shows, you need 400+ hours of storage, more like 2-3 weeks than 1 week. So you’d need a complicated system with partial battery and partial inefficient hydrogen storage of some sort.

Well, Fraunhofer says that 30TWh is needed for whole German electricity demand, which is 600TWh. So it’s 5% of demand. Your example is 1500kWh annual PV and 168kWh of storage, which is a bit over 10%, so twice as much.

In terms of energy payback it’s the bulk storage that dominates. If partial battery (for peak shaving) and partial hydrogen storage (for weeks of storage) is used, then it’s hydrogen that will dominate energy payback.

Your own reference showed Li-ion to require 150 MJ/kg rather than the 25 MJ/kg of PbA, and the energy density improvement doesn’t make up for it.

My other link (this one) shows that higher energy density, better efficiency and more cycles do make up for it. PbA has ESOI of 2, while Li-ion has about 10. So on a lifetime basis Li-ion is much better.

While that’s still a long way from pumped hydro and compressed air (200+), I don’t rule out that improvements would someday make batteries viable for bulk storage.

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So lets use the Fraunhofer data of 30 TWh and 140 kWh/kWh embodied energy.

This means 4200 TWh to make a nation sized PbA battery. More than twice that for Li-Ion.

That’s 7 YEARS worth of total German electric production of 600 TWh/year. Maybe 14 years for Li-Ion.

So, the nation sized battery would consume just about all of Germany’s electricity production. 7 years would be a typical Pb-A lifetime, on average (Li-Ion also might last 14 years?).

Clearly we are not going to do this.

What about hydrogen storage? Well hydrogen has low input energy for the storage infrastructure, just compressors and underground caverns. Unfortunately hydrogen has an electrolyser efficiency of only 70%, then 10-15% storage loss, then 55% efficient CCGT or fuel cell. Some hydrogen would be lost also in the caverns. Total should be around 1/3 round trip efficiency. This isn’t going to happen, for different reasons: it is economically and ecologically stupid to take 3 intermittent kWhs to make 1 kWh of reliable power, on a scale of nation wide energy consumption!

The idea of making hydrogen to inject to the natural gas network is even less efficient due to distribution compressor energy consumption and low use efficiency of the general gas grid (eg using natgas to heat homes with furnaces isn’t as efficient as using electric heat pumps).

Pumped hydro is probably the only option, but no way that Germany is going to find the suitable topology and geology for 30 TWh of pumped hydro. Currently the Germans have built 0.06 TWh of pumped hydro, with great effort. They would need 500 times more pumped storage than they have today!! That’s the most mature grid energy storage tech there is!

We’re not even talking about electric vehicles or electric heat pump space heating, not to mention electrification of industry and commercial sectors. This could push the electric demand to over 1000 TWh for Germany and perhaps a 50 TWh energy storage system would be needed, further compounding the problems.

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Just playing devils advocate for a second:
this sea-water pumped hydro could power the whole of Australia for 10 hours. (Very expensive though. May as well just build 10 nukes for your dough!) It’s 7km in diameter.

Click to access Australian_Sustainable_Energy-by_the_numbers3.pdf

Does Germany have enough high seaside to build a number of these things? Still got the ERoEI problem if only using wind and pv, but once we get into solar thermal things get interesting. An ERoEI of 9 might mean a more energy tight civilisation, but if we change town planning rules and use electric transport like trains and trams and trolley buses, then maybe that would compensate for the lost ERoEI points.

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Pumped hydro is probably the only option, but no way that Germany is going to find the suitable topology and geology for 30 TWh of pumped hydro.

Norway has 84TWh of storage in their hydro lakes, but pumped hydro is not an option on global scale. On global scale only chemical storage (hydrogen/methane) seems to be able to provide bulk storage.

This isn’t going to happen, for different reasons: it is economically and ecologically stupid to take 3 intermittent kWhs to make 1 kWh of reliable power, on a scale of nation wide energy consumption!

It’s only 5% of total annual demand, so it is technically doable.

If you can read German here is more detailed information: Kombikraftwerk 2.

Or a short english summary.

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how much energy is needed for pumped storage facilities?

Just quickly, from Weisbach’s supplementary spreadsheet (pumped hydro worksheet) –

http://tinyurl.com/nzdd968

The cumulative energy demand for Atdorf is 31 PJ with storage capacity of 52 TJ equates to 0.6 MJ/Wh (contrast PbA about 0.8 MJ/Wh and lithium 2 MJ/Wh) BUT essentially no cycle limit and a lifetime of 100+ years.

(need to double check the figures and also check other data)

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So that’s 167 kWh embodied/kWh capacity for pumped hydro.

And 222 kWh for PbA.

PPP251 has a lower figure, says 140 kWh for PbA.

Its hard to see why pumped hydro wouldn’t be much better. Its just mostly a bunch of concrete when you get down to it, which is very low energy intensity. Pumps themselves have high power density.

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Germany has no high sea sides. Nor has it good solar thermal resource. It is very cloudy so you cant concentrate the light.renewable germany means mostly pv powered germany. Which sucks so far up north.

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Cyril, this Denholm paper gives 373 GJ(th)/MWh (table 2), which is 0.37 MJ/Wh – contrast with 0.6 MJ/Wh from Weisbach above so this is in the ballpark. This gives electrical/generators as the main energy cost followed by dam construction, then tunneling.

The raw MJ/Wh for storage is due to the upfront cost, but the long life and low maintenance LCA works out a huge advantage for hydro in the long run, hence the very high EROI of dammed hydro. Intuitively, like you, I would have thought it better for storage but I guess the low energy density of gravity-derived power works against hydro.

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“On global scale only chemical storage (hydrogen/methane) seems to be able to provide bulk storage.”

PPP, that’s not going to happen as I outlined already, it is only 1/3 efficiency so you need to put in 3 kWh of solar or wind to make 1 kWh of reliable power. That’s crazy it will not happen except in the minds of renewables enthusiasts who live on a different planet.

“It’s only 5% of total annual demand, so it is technically doable.”

No it isn’t. The annual demand is consumed without storage. You’re switching metrics to make an enormous problem sound small. Germany has 0.05 to 0.06 TWh of pumped hydro. This took many years to develop. They need 5% of 600 TWh or 30 TWh. With electric vehicles and such included this is going to get to 1000 TWh so 50 TWh of pumped hydro, nearly 1000 times today’s installed capacity. This doesn’t fit in Germany which doesn’t have that much correct topology and geology for such massive amounts of water. Tom Murphy has come to the same conclusion:

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/

“Cyril, this Denholm paper gives 373 GJ(th)/MWh (table 2), which is 0.37 MJ/Wh – contrast with 0.6 MJ/Wh from Weisbach above so this is in the ballpark. This gives electrical/generators as the main energy cost followed by dam construction, then tunneling.”

Thanks Graham. Surprisingly large then. This is 3100 TWh for the 30 TWh that Germany needs to power itself with solar and wind. That’s more than 5 years of all of Germany’s electrical output of 600 TWh!!! We can be sure Germany isn’t going to make that kind of energy investment even if they wanted to – they have a country to power, so shutting down Germany for the next 5 years is hardly an option! This is clearly not going to happen in any reasonable timeframe….

Whats more, using unreliable power to make the pumped storage equipment is hardly an option, so this will have to be made with fossil fuels. Still I suppose this would be a decent use of remaining fossil fuels, if only there were enough pumped storage potential in Germany…

Now lets take a look at EROEI again. IF you have enough pumped storage potential (not Germany) that is of course which most countries won’t have.

If the pumped storage lasts 100 years and is used 50% of theoretical capacity with a 1/20th total country capacity, that means 10 cycles per year (this sounds low but the capacity is enormous). This is 1000 cycles over 100 years. This is 3000 TWh output. The input was 3100 TWh so the EROEI of storage is around 1.

But maybe its a little better, since bigger (actualy GINORMOUS) reservoirs, don’t need more turbine capacity. On the other hand the extra electrical power lines to transport all that unreliable power (low capacity factor grid from solar/wind to storage site) plus the energy required to make the solar and wind generators isn’t included yet. Even ignoring those inputs altogether the EROEI looks really poor.

This sort of confirms the main article of this thread. I’m not a big fan of trying to power countries with wind and solar, it is for dreamers as far as I’m concerned, but I never realized this energy investment issue to be so serious.

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All of this hinges, heavily, on how much storage we need. The studies cited above are virtually nonsense, using models to predict how much storage a national grid needs. There are two problems with this
1. Why not use existing data? There are lots of places with high penetrations of renewables that we can analyse. And lots of renewable output data so we can analyse how long the wind don’t shine and the sun don’t blow.
2. They assume demand is constant and doesn’t respond to price signals.

Response to prices is, and will continue, happening right now. Households and businesses are exploring ways to maximise their onsite use of solar. The economics of this are outstanding at the moment and very easy to pursue with some simple control measures.

This piece from Greentechmedia http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/questioning-the-value-proposition-of-energy-storage is an excellent summary of the demand-side opportunities available and their economic opportunities

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No wait, decimal error, that’d be 1000×30 = 30000 TWh output so EROEI of 9.7 not 1. A little better.

What is the energy required to operate and maintain pumped hydro over 100 years? This could be a lot since generating equipment doesn’t last that long.

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PPP, that’s not going to happen as I outlined already, it is only 1/3 efficiency so you need to put in 3 kWh of solar or wind to make 1 kWh of reliable power.

I don’t know if you are aware that hydrogen is used in some industrial processes (such as fertilizer production) and non-fossil source of hydrogen is needed anyway (today we get it from natural gas). Bulk energy storage is only one of several uses of hydrogen (or methane for that matter).

Electrolysis is essentially the only way how we can get it sustainably on global scale but unfortunately there’s no way around some amount of losses in electrolysis, so we’ll just have to live with it.

Germany has 0.05 to 0.06 TWh of pumped hydro. This took many years to develop. They need 5% of 600 TWh or 30 TWh. With electric vehicles and such included this is going to get to 1000 TWh so 50 TWh of pumped hydro, nearly 1000 times today’s installed capacity.

Pumped hydro is obviously not going to do this job. It can be useful in daily cycling, but bulk storage will be provided by hydrogen or methane.

Germany has 200TWh of storage capacity in gas grid, which is enough to power whole country for 2 months (a legacy from cold war). So even if electricity demand increases to 1000TWh there’s still enough storage capacity to get through cloudy windless weeks.

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“All of this hinges, heavily, on how much storage we need. The studies cited above are virtually nonsense, using models to predict how much storage a national grid needs”

Its funny you think the Fraunhofer Institute is full of nonsense. Since its a religious heart of renewable-ism.

5% of yearly demand isn’t odd.

” Why not use existing data? There are lots of places with high penetrations of renewables that we can analyse.”

Nope. There are no countries being powered by wind and solar. Some countries are being powered by hydro because they have relatively small electric demand combined with lavish hydropower potential.

Existing data points to a very obvious conclusion: you can power a country with hydro if you have an enormous hydro potential and are not a big energy user. Norway is a good example. Norway has, according to some commenter here, 86 TWh of hydro power storage capacity. Many hundreds of hours of storage of full power country equivalents.

A more alarming conclusion is also reached by looking at the existing data. Countries that don’t have enough hydro power potential, but are anti-nuclear and want to power themselves with wind and sun, end up guzzling fossil fuels, coal, gas, heck even peat. Anything goes.

“They assume demand is constant and doesn’t respond to price signals.”

Demand does “respond” to price signals by moving out of country. Its perfectly possible to chase heavy industry away and import the energy intensive goods from abroad. Energy-elsewhere, and emissions-elsewhere policy.

Germany is cold and dark in the winter. Lots of electricity and other energy demand, it peaks when its cold and dark and people sit in their homes with artificial lighting and heating. There is nil solar output, and I mean nil. The worst days are 0% capacity factor, typical january weeks are 1-2% capacity factor. That’s nil output.

Can you count the number of hours in december and january? That’s a decent guestimate of the number of full storage hours you’d need in a PV powered Germany.

Wind is not of much use because there isn’t enough of it. Renewables folks must depend heavily on PV to power entire countries, or even the world. Which means energy storage on the scale of seasons. Even then there’s a potential of a bad year – or even a bad solar DECADE. Imagine that. Entire continents could be swept in a dark age, literally.

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“Response to prices is, and will continue, happening right now. Households and businesses are exploring ways to maximise their onsite use of solar. The economics of this are outstanding at the moment and very easy to pursue with some simple control measures.”

As long as you have a solid fossil fuel powered grid backbone (not backup, backbone) everything works fine. Solar is on the tit of fossil fuels. Its addicted to the lovely reliable grid that wonderfully masks its unreliability and impotency, its inability to stand on its own.

Renewables people are good marketeers. They can effectively mask real problems of renewables such as the fact that they are utterly unreliable and dependent on fossil fuel backbone grids, and even make it look like the fossil fuels are the reliability and subsidy problem, even though no such conclusion is supported by the numbers. Its the “magic mirror” of the renewables crowd.

We numbers-based boring people could learn something from such marketing.

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Bulk energy storage is only one of several uses of hydrogen (or methane for that matter).

Bulk storage of methane within existing gas networks is potentially very promising – this applies to Germany particularly but also other locations. The linepack of Victoria’s natural gas system (just the existing high pressure network) has several days storage and has the benefit that the pressure is regulated at end use so the linepack pressure can freely rise and fall (unlike electricity).

The two major problems with RPM (renewable power methane) are low cycle efficiency (typically 35% with the most efficiency CCGT, but in practice usually lower), and the very high cost of the electrolyzer, methanation, compression, power electronics etc. There are multiple pathways into and out of methane, all of them more expensive than conventional power generation, so we’re taking an already expensive power source, reducing its efficiency and making it more expensive again. Researchers have been pursuing electrolyers for decades, billions have gone into these areas, but these tend to have limited lives and are very expensive. This is a potentially promising area worth research funding but not a cheap or easy solution.

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This paper discusses ‘world grid’, which would also effectively eliminate intermittency:

The Global Grid

The idea is to put renewables generators where best resources are (in the deserts, and in good wind sites) and connect all of the world’s continents in a ‘supergrid’.

HVDC cables have about 3% loss per 1000km and another 0.6% at the terminals. For example distance from New York to Oporto (Portugal) is 5334km, so the losses would sum up to about 17%, which is better than pumped hydro (which typically has about 25% losses). So it’s better to connect Europe and North America than to use pumped hydro.

The technology is proven and has been in use for some time, although on smaller scales (the longest underwater is 580km Netherlands-Norway, and overhead line 2000km Xiangjiaba–Shanghai HVDC system).

Lifespan is longer than batteries and embodied energy lower, so this would eliminate intermittency and wouldn’t lower EROEI much.

Although technically (and as the paper argues also economically) possible this may not be politically feasible in the short term. But in the long term, the technology is there..

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” this may not be politically feasible in the short term.”

LOL that’s putting it mildy. Global electricity grid… while you are dreaming about politically impossible world uniting plans, CO2 emissions are going UP, every year.

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while you are dreaming about politically impossible world uniting plans, CO2 emissions are going UP, every year.

Long term world grid will be built because it makes sense (no intermittency, less reserves everywhere, very economical..), but short term I agree that countries will go for other options.

As far as emissions are concerned France uses 75% nuclear, 15% hydro and 10% natural gas, which gives you the same emissions as if you used 75% solar and wind, 15% hydro and 10% natural gas.

So the path to low carbon economy is not really about nuclear or renewables, it’s about price on carbon (for which Australian backwards government should be criticized) and how we manage economy in society and environment.

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I hear you Cyril. Also not mentioned: the fact that it is 20,000 km from the brightest side to the darkest side of the earth. How’s a global grid going to deal with losses like that? Just add a super-storm that clouds up half the globe,and you’re halving the solar output for the globe. (Solar PV can work at about 50% efficiency on cloudy days). Also, for the sunny side to meet the dark side’s energy requirements means doubling or tripling the sunny side’s capacity. EG: Are the wind and waves and solar of Australia, Japan and far eastern Russia going to light up North and South America? I don’t think so. This is wishful thinking that even this particular sci-fi addict can pick holes in! In fact, when considering solar, isn’t it only the sunny third of the Earth that really counts? It’s not even the sunny half, but maybe even the sunny third or quarter of the earth that’s getting the most sunlight. So every time we divide the energy input, we’ve got to triple or quadruple the capacity. Which leaves me wondering (again) just how many times renewable advocates want us to double or triple our capacity?

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Sadly, here’s Amory Lovins relying on some snazzy graphics from NREL pulsing with solar PV and solar thermal and wind supply bubbles, apparently showing how America could work with 100% renewables and practically no storage.
Efficiency, some smart hardware (like ice-box air-conditioning that ‘stores’ cool as ice), and some electric vehicle storage will do the job for us. (And there I was thinking NREL also said that we don’t need to double our daytime power grid capacity if we just charged our EV’s overnight, assuming reliable baseload power! Apparently that’s wrong now too. The EV’s are here to smooth the load, not just charge overnight and, um, actually drive using that power.)

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The story of methane and hydro goes back some time …
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=5935732

And the politics is complex. Brazil really doesn’t want to list methane from its dams in its UNFCCC submissions. Nor are they listed in the Edgar methane inventory. The issue was being discussed when I was writing CSIRO Perfidy back in 2008/9, but it’s not resolved. Lots of people share Brazil’s concern, so the issue is just pushed under the carpet.

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“As far as emissions are concerned France uses 75% nuclear, 15% hydro and 10% natural gas, which gives you the same emissions as if you used 75% solar and wind, 15% hydro and 10% natural gas.”

France actually gets 75% electricity from nuclear.

The actual number of countries that get 75% wind and solar are zero. None. Zulch. Nada. The square root of jack.

You are positing a false argument; nakedly asserting that to be demonstrated to be fact and the saying “see I told you so”.

I can assure that if I had a billion dollars I would not have any problem paying my bills. That is evident. The question is how do you get there?

75% wind and solar requires massive energy storage, massive overbuilding, and massive spillage. With energy sources that already can’t compete with coal, the latter needs no massive overbuild, spillage and energy storage to burden it down.

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The actual number of countries that get 75% wind and solar are zero.

Which doesn’t imply that it can’t be done. Simulations for several countries show otherwise.

75% wind and solar requires massive energy storage, massive overbuilding, and massive spillage.

You obviously didn’t bother to check the numbers from German simulation I linked before. The numbers are as follows:

  • from a total of 680TWh of generated electricity about 59TWh is spilled (überschuss)
  • from 621TWh that remains about 75TWh is used for storage (at various efficiencies)
  • 8.6TWh is lost in the grid and 11TWh is assumed to be exported (based on todays flows)
  • the remaining 523TWh is consumption

Note that this simulation assumes 80% of wind and solar, not 75%. And this is for 100% renewable grid, not 90%. If 10% of natural gas was used (as in France), then most of the concerns with storage (and asociated losses) are avoided.

We could argue if 75TWh used for storage is massive or not, but spillage certainly isn’t. France’s nuclear CF is 75%, which is well below 90% which is advertised by nuclear industry. So 15% of energy is effectively spilled (since marginal costs of production would be very small). If Germany spills less than 10% then that does in no way qualify as a “massive overbuild” or “massive spillage”.

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Hi PP251,
1. We want to imitate France’s quick roll out of nuclear power to displace fossil fuels, not their 10% gas.
2. Do you have evidence about France’s old reactors’ capacity factors?
3. Do you know what capacity factors AP1000’s and other modern reactors have?
4. Do you have any evidence that nukes need 10% gas?

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@EN, France has low capacity factor because of load following:

France’s nuclear reactors comprise 90% of EdF’s capacity and hence are used in load-following mode (see section below) and are even sometimes closed over weekends, so their capacity factor is low by world standards, at 77.3%.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Country-Profiles/Countries-A-F/France/

It doesn’t matter what is advertised capacity factor of AP1000. If nuclear provided 100% of electricity then nameplate capacity would have to match peak load and capacity factors would fall even further. Because nuclear has high capital costs and low marginal costs this would increase overall costs (and lower EROI for that matter). Natural gas has lower capital costs and higher marginal costs, so it’s better suited to cover peak load and that’s why it’s used.

The point isn’t that nuclear needs natural gas, the point is that since money drives these things natural gas is used for the last 10%.

In terms of carbon emissions there is no difference if you used 10% of gas and most of the rest nuclear, or 10% of gas and most of the rest wind and solar.

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Wind and solar together, with rare exceptions, provide power less than 35% of the time. That leaves at least 65% of the time for natural gas. You have done nothing more than decorate a natural gas power plant with wind turbines and solar farms. We must not burn any more natural gas at all. We went over the limit in the 1980s. The nuclear plants must load follow regardless of the economics.

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Eclipse: “As Climate Change is real, there’s a reason to stick with the A.”

And that reason would be… to make empty, meaningless gestures to appease the Climate Gods, like our ancestors of old?

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Take a deep breath Bart and look at it this way.
Even if this climate thing turns out to be a ‘conspiracy’, at least it’s getting us to prepare for peak fossil fuels which is going to hit sooner than later. You know the real energy crisis hits half way through the reserves, not when we pump the last drop or burn the last ton? You know that, don’t you?

You also know that 7 million people die a year from fossil fuel particulates.

You also know that climate change is the best evidence we have so far, but your politics has darkened your worldview so far that only a tinfoil hat helps you see the light. I suggest taking off that tinfoil hat and tuning in to the real world. It’s inconvenient, but it’s true.

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A little basic math explains why wind and solar can not power the world. Unpredictable sources need to have storage in at least the inverse of their Capacity Factor. I’m not sure If that is the correct term but I mean if the average global RE CF is 25% then we would have to build 4x and store about 3/4ths of that plus add in the 30% or so extra to make up for inefficiency of storage.
I believe Pumped Hydro Storage is the cheapest (energywise, also) to build and I believe we would need about 100,000 1km x 2km by 30 meter lakes plus lower storage reservoir – to to store the energy for an all wind and solar powered planetary civilization of just over 10 billion at rather high standards. The solar would cover about 1% of ALL the land and the wind component would require whatever underground power lines to connect millions of floating deep sea turbines. Pretty awesome stuff but the PHS simply covers too much ground. We could convert into clean liquid fuels but that would require even more installed capacity – up to double or more depending on overall efficiency.

The other renewable energy ways to go are OTEC (its 24/7 too) and, of course, the molten salt reactor (which is a proven passively safe fission concept) capable of providing many thousands of electric exajoules, more than enough to fully develop the entire future population. The OTEC concept would literally pump warmer surface waters into the deep, thereby directly mitigating the effects from most of the excess carbon dioxide caused warming. Some of this energy might have to be used to convert excess carbon dioxide into limestone.

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PPP251 wrote: “In terms of carbon emissions there is no difference if you used 10% of gas and most of the rest nuclear, or 10% of gas and most of the rest wind and solar.”

Rubbish. First off, this article from BNC clearly shows an enormous energy and thus carbon investment is needed to build the energy storage for 90% wind and solar. Second, if you think nuclear’s slight reduction in capacity factor upon supplying most of the demand (load following) is bad, consider the spillage of renewable energy, especially if the storage is too small which it will be for the rest of the century clearly. 90% wind and solar means spillage in excess of 50%. So you halve the capacity factor of wind and solar if they must provide 90% of the energy. Without storage, as is practically the case today for Germany, spillage increases to over 75%. That’s 4x lower capacity factor!!

France does not use 10% natural gas. More like 4%. And 4% coal, which isn’t used for peaking. So france could eliminate the last 4% coal soon (when Flamanville EPR comes online)

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