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Emissions Nuclear Renewables

Emission cuts realities for electricity generation – costs and CO2 emissions

We must cut our carbon emissions immediately!“… “We have to transition rapidly to 100% renewable energy!“… “A massive nuclear build out is the only logical course of action!“… and so on. We get these well-meant but hand-waving arguments all the time, almost always bereft of real-world numbers — especially those with $$ attached. This greatly limits their utility and credibility. Without a practical, pragmatic plan, we aren’t going to get anywhere and the people in control of the purse strings will not pay them serious attention.

That’s why I’m so happy to present this new, clear-headed analysis by Peter Lang on BraveNewClimate (which was spawned by in the discussion threads of previous posts on wind and solar power — their costs and ability to mitigate carbon emissions). Using Australia as a case study (although the same principles would apply in almost any developed economy that is currently reliant on fossil fuel energy), Peter considers six electricity supply scenarios for the period 2010 to 2050 — a high-carbon business-as-usual projection as a reference, and five low(er) carbon alternatives. In each of the alternatives, coal-fired power stations are retired, and not replaced, such that by the period 2035 — 2040, the last few are closed.

These analysis are simple, clearly presented and easily understood. Yet they’re also realistic in the same way that David Mackay’s energy plans are realistic — they add up (although Mackay was concerned about whether the physics are right, Lang is concerned about whether the $$ and build rates are plausible). They are an apples and apples set of plans, in the sense that they represent reasonable relative comparisons which all aim to achieve the same goal, in different ways. Like any modelling exercise, the uncertainties lie in the quality of the input data and the acceptability of the assumptions made. Peter makes them quite explicit. If you wish to disagree and propose/source your own numbers, fine, but remember that the onus is then on you to justify your assumptions.

I’ll stop and this point and let you read the analysis. Get yourself a large mug of coffee or a tall glass of wine, and settle in for an interesting read. After that, let the comments fly. I certainly have my own points to make about where I think the analysis is most/least plausible, but that can come a little later…

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Emission Cuts Realities – Electricity Generation

Cost and CO2 emissions projections for different electricity generation options for Australia to 2050

By Peter Lang, January 2010

(Download the printable 32-page PDF version here, which also includes references and Appendices).

Peter Lang is a retired geologist and engineer with 40 years experience on a wide range of energy projects throughout the world, including managing energy R&D and providing policy advice for government and opposition. His experience includes: coal, oil, gas, hydro, geothermal, nuclear power plants, nuclear waste disposal, and a wide range of energy end use management projects.

Abstract

Five options for cutting CO2 emissions from electricity generation in Australia are compared with a ‘Business as Usual’ option over the period 2010 to 2050. The six options comprise combinations of coal, gas, nuclear, wind and solar thermal technologies.

The conclusions: The nuclear option reduces CO2 emissions the most, is the only option that can be built quickly enough to make the deep emissions cuts required, and is the least cost of the options that can cut emissions sustainably. Solar thermal and wind power are the highest cost of the options considered. The cost of avoiding emissions is lowest with nuclear and highest with solar and wind power.

Introduction

This paper presents a simple analysis of CO2 emissions, capital expenditure, electricity generation costs and the emissions avoidance cost for six options for supplying Australia’s electricity. The results are presented at five year intervals for the period 2010 to 2050.

The purpose of this paper is to address two questions that were raised in discussion of three earlier papers (Lang 2009a, Lang 2009b, Lang 2009c). The papers ‘Solar Power Realities’ (Lang 2009b), and the Addendum (2009c), looked at the cost of reducing CO2 emissions using solar power. They did this by looking at the limit situation; that is, we replace all our fossil fuel electricity generation ‘overnight’ with either solar power and energy storage or with nuclear power. The papers concluded that solar power would cost at least 40 times more than nuclear to supply the National Electricity Market (NEM). The estimates were based on current prices for currently available technologies and for the NEM demand in 2007.

The first paper, “Cost and Quantity of Greenhouse Gas Emissions Avoided by Wind Generation” (Lang 2009a), concluded that wind power with back-up by gas generators saves little greenhouse gas emissions and the avoidance cost is high compared with other alternatives.

Discussion of these analyses raised two main questions:

1. The limit situation does not take into account what happens during the transition period. The earliest we could begin commissioning nuclear is about 2020. So, what should we do until then? Does it make sense to build wind power as fast as possible until 2020, at least, so we can cut greenhouse gas emissions as quickly as possible and start as early as possible?

2. The previous papers consider replacement of fossil fuel generators with one technology only rather than with a mix of technologies. This raises the question: would a mix of technologies be better able to meet the demand and at lower cost. Would a mix of solar and wind be lower cost than either alone, and lower cost than nuclear?

To attempt to answer these questions, in a ‘ball park’ way, I conducted a simple analysis of the cost, and CO2 emissions from six options (six technology mixes) for the period 2010 to 2050. The six options are:

1. Business as Usual (BAU).

2. Combined Cycle Gas Turbine (CCGT).

3. Nuclear and CCGT.

4. Wind and Gas [Gas means a mix of Open Cycle Gas Turbine (OCGT) and Combined Cycle Gas Turbine (CCGT)].

5. Solar Thermal and CCGT

6. Solar Thermal, Wind and Gas.

Throughout the paper ‘emissions’ refers to ‘CO2-e emissions’. More specifically, it refers to CO2-e emissions from electricity sent out from the power station. The figures are not life cycle emissions (see assumption 10, below).

Assumptions

Assumptions that apply to all options are described in this section. Assumptions that are specific to an option or to a technology are described under the relevant option in the Methodology section.

1. The total energy supplied is as per the ABARE (2007) projections of electricity supply to 2030, extended linearly to 2050. All options must supply this total energy for each period and all must provide the same quality of power as the Business as Usual case. To achieve this, intermittent renewable energy generators must be backed up by a responsive generator technology.

2. For all except the Business as Usual case, it is assumed that coal fired power stations can be and will be decommissioned at the rate of 1 GW per year for black coal generators and 0.4 GW per year for brown coal generators.

3. The energy deficit caused by decommissioning the coal fired power stations is supplied by replacement generating capacity. Five options for replacement generating capacity are considered. Each option comprises a mix of a few technologies that in combination are capable, theoretically, of providing the energy and the power that would have been provided by the coal power stations. That is, the mixes of replacement technologies must be capable of providing the same power quality, and of supplying it on demand, at all times.

4. The ABARE (2007) projections provide the breakdown of energy supply by nine generation types; four fossil fuel and five renewable energy. The energy supplied by the seven non-coal technologies is the same in all six options [There is one exception to this statement – see Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT]. The Business as Usual case is as per the ABARE (2007) projections for all nine technologies.

5. The main constraint in the analyses is the assumed decommissioning rate for coal fired power stations and the assumed build rate achievable for the replacement technologies. The build rate assumptions are arguably optimistic. The achievability of the assumed build rates is discussed in a later section.

6. The capital expenditures do not include the cost of replacement of the reserve capacity margin that is needed to cover for scheduled and unscheduled outages because the reserve capacity margin is assumed to be the same for all options.

7. The analyses are intentionally simple so that non-specialists can follow the assumptions and analyses. A more thorough analysis would use sophisticated modelling to optimise the mix of technologies and to calculate the long run marginal cost of electricity sent out. All available technologies would be included in the analyses rather then the simple mixes used in these analyses. Such analyses are complicated and need sophisticated modelling capability. For examples see EPRI (2009a), MIT (2007), MIT (2009), ACIL-Tasman (2009), Frontier Economics (2009), ATSE (2008).

8. Transmission costs are similar for the Business as Usual, CCGT and Nuclear options. So no additional cost is included for transmission for the CCGT and Nuclear options. Extra costs for transmission are included for the Wind and Solar Thermal options.

9. No allowance is made for the lower energy growth rate that energy efficiency improvements will bring. This omission is offset because no allowance is made for the higher growth rate as cleaner electricity replaces gas for heating and replaces oil for land transport (either in electric vehicles or through synthetic fuels such as methanol or hydrogen that use electricity for their production).

10. CO2 emissions from nuclear and the renewable energy technologies are assumed to be zero in operation, consistent with DCC (2009), EPRI (2009b) and Frontier (2009). On a Life Cycle Analysis (LCA) basis the emissions from these technologies are small compared with fossil fuel generation. These are ignored in this simple analysis. [Lightbucket (2009) lists the results from authoritative studies of LCA emissions from electricity generation].

11. No attempt has been made to reconcile CO2 emissions calculated for the Business as Usual option with the emissions projections published by the Department of Climate Change (2009).

12. The ABARE (2007) energy projections are for all Australia’s electricity supply, both off-grid and on-grid. However, the analyses here apply the ABARE (2007) figures as if they were for grid connected electricity. This simplification means the potential for emissions reductions and the cost of the options is overstated (perhaps by 10% in early years decreasing over time).

Table 1 lists the CO2-e emissions intensities for sent out electricity in 2010 for the Business as Usual technologies.

Table 2 summarises the assumptions and inputs for the coal and replacement technologies.

Methodology

This section explains how the analyses were done.

Option 1 – Business as Usual (BAU)

The ABARE (2007) projections for electricity supply for the years 2005-06 to 2029-30 were extended to 2050 and converted from petajoules (PJ) to terawatt-hours (TWh). Figure 1 shows the energy projections for the Business as Usual option.

The CO2 emissions were calculated for the Business as Usual case by multiplying the energy by the CO2 emissions factors. The assumed emissions factors for 2010 are listed in Table 1. Emissions factors for the periods after 2010 were reduced at the rate of 1% per 5 years to account for average efficiency improvements for the existing generators and new generators. The renewable and nuclear technologies are assumed to produce zero emissions (Table 1).

To compare the cost difference between the options we need only compare the cost of the coal with the replacement technologies. All the other technologies are the same for all options.

The capital expenditure for coal in the Business as Usual case comprises two components:

a) the capital expenditure of new coal capacity added to meet the rising demand for electricity; and

b) the capital expenditure of new coal to replace old coal that has reached the end of its economic life. To work with capital expenditure, we must convert the energy figures in the ABARE projections to average power.

The energy (TWh) was converted to average power (GW) using a capacity factor of 90% (refer Table 2). As mentioned previously, this simple analysis ignores the reserve capacity margin needed in the generation system.

The amount of new coal capacity required each year for the Business as Usual case was calculated from the ABARE (2007) projections. The amount of new coal to replace existing coal at the end of its economic life was calculated as 2% of existing capacity per year [Assuming a 40 year economic life, the plants would be replaced at the rate of 2.5% per year if the capacity was constant from year to year. However, the capacity is increasing over time. In any one year we need to replace only the plants that are 40 years old. If the capacity doubles in 40 years, then we need to replace 1.25% of the total existing capacity in each year. I have assumed 2% as a round figure in between 1.25% and 2.5%.].

The capital cost of new coal capacity for the Business as Usual option was calculated by multiplying the amount of new coal capacity by the unit rate for Ultra Super Critical Black Coal (air cooled) and Ultra Super Critical Brown Coal (air cooled) (refer Table 35, ACIL-Tasman 2009).

All non-BAU options

For all options other than Business as Usual, black coal capacity is decommissioned at the rate of 1 GW per year, and brown coal at the rate of 0.4 GW per year. Decommissioning starts in 2010. All black coal is decommissioned by 2040 and all brown coal by 2035.

The amount of energy these power stations would have generated if not decommissioned is calculated. This is the energy deficit that must be supplied by the replacement generators in all the non Business as Usual options.

The CO2 emissions from the remaining coal capacity are calculated by multiplying the energy generated from black coal and brown coal by the emissions factor for that technology for that year.

The Business as Usual Option comprises projections for nine technologies, – Black Coal, Brown Coal and seven others. The emissions from all the seven non-coal technologies are the same for all options.

The following sections describe the five options considered here for replacing the energy from the decommissioned coal power stations.

Option 2 – Combined Cycle Gas Turbine (CCGT)

CCGT is built to replace the energy deficit resulting from the decommissioning of the coal fired plants. The amount of CCGT capacity required is calculated by multiplying the energy deficit by 90% capacity factor. Figure 2 shows the energy supplied by each technology.

The CO2 emissions for CCGT are calculated using a CO2 emissions factor of 0.45 t CO2/MWh, decreasing at 1% per five year to reflect increasing generation efficiency.

The CO2 emissions from the remaining coal generators and from the other seven technologies are included in the total for this option.

The capital cost for this option is calculated using the unit rate for new build CCGT (air cooled) given in Table 35, ACIL Tasman (2009), and decreasing at -0.4% pa from 2030 to 2050.

Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT

For this option, nuclear power is commissioned at the rate of 1 GW per year from 2020 to 2025, then at 1.5 GW per year to 2030, then at 2 GW per year to 2050. The reason for selecting these rates is discussed below in “How achievable are the build rates”

CCGT is commissioned at the rate needed to make up the difference between the energy that the nuclear power can supply and the energy deficit caused by decommissioning the coal power stations. Figure 3 shows how much energy is produced by each technology.

From 2010 to 2019, no nuclear capacity is commissioned so the CCGT capacity is the same as in Option 2 – CCGT. From 2020 to 2025, nuclear is not built fast enough to replace the coal capacity being decommissioned, so CCGT is added to supply the energy deficit. After 2025, nuclear is being built faster than coal is being decommissioned. So, progressively less energy is being required from CCGT. This shows up (in this simple analysis) as a reduction in CCGT capacity. The practical interpretation of this is that the Natural Gas generation capacity would be reduced at this rate. This means that Natural Gas generation capacity would not be replaced at the end of its 30 year economic life. This begins from about 2025.

CO2 emissions for nuclear are assumed to be zero (see ‘Assumptions’ and Table 1). CO2 emissions for Coal, CCGT and the other technologies are calculated in the same way as for Option 2 – CCGT. As for capacity, the negative emissions shown against CCGT should actually be a reduction in emissions from ‘Natural Gas’ but for simplicity of calculation they are shown as negative for CCGT.

The capital cost calculations for this option are similar to those for Option 2 – CCGT. The cost of the nuclear capacity is at the unit rate in ACIL-Tasman (2009), Table 35, and decreasing at -0.9% pa from 2030 to 2035 then at -0.6% pa to 2050.

Option 4 – Wind and Gas

For this option, wind power capacity is commissioned at the same rate as the coal fired plants are decommissioned. So when all wind farms are producing full power (a rare event), the wind farms will supply all the energy that the decommissioned coal fired power plants would have supplied. When the wind farms are not producing full power, back-up generation is required to make up for the energy deficit.

Back-up capacity is provided by a combination of Combined Cycle Gas Turbines (CCGT) and Open Cycle Gas Turbines (OCGT). Equal proportions are assumed. A Capacity Credit of 8% is assumed (AER, 2009), so 1 GW of wind power capacity is assumed to be backed up by 0.46 GW of OCGT and 0.46 GW of CCGT [In practice more gas capacity will be built than this calculation indicates. OCGT and CCGT run at lower capacity factors in practice than the 90% used in this analysis for calculating the amount of capacity required]. The proportions, on the basis of capacity, are 1.0:0.46:0.46.

The energy is calculated assuming a capacity factor of 30% for Wind and availability of 90% for OCGT and CCGT. So, on average, 3 GWh of energy is supplied by a combination of Wind, OCGT and CCGT in the proportions 1:1:1. Figure 4 shows how much energy is produced by each technology.

CO2 emissions for wind generation are assumed to be zero (refer to ‘Assumptions’ and Table 1). The CO2 emissions for OCGT are calculated using a CO2 emissions intensity of 0.7 t CO2/MWh, decreasing at 1% per five years to reflect increasing generation efficiency. CO2 emissions for CCGT, Coal and the other technologies are calculated in the same way as for Option 2 – CCGT. The lower efficiency and higher emissions from the gas turbines when operating in back up mode (Lang, 2009a; Hawkins, 2009) are included in this analysis. The CO2 emissions are increased by 34% for OCGT and 17% for CCGT (Hawkins, 2009) when these technologies are operating in back-up mode. The higher emissions rate is applied to the proportion of the energy that is generated when they are assumed to be operating in ‘back-up’ mode. For simplicity this is assumed to be equal to the proportion of the replacement energy that is generated by Wind. In effect, the increased emissions factor is applied to half the energy generated by the CCGT and OCGT replacement generators.

The capital cost calculations for this option are similar to those for Option 2 – CCGT and Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT. The capital cost of the wind capacity is $2591/kW (Average of seven wind farms listed as ‘under construction’ in ABARE (2009). This Australian cost is close to the US cost in EPRI (2009b), Table 7.1, p 7-5, which is US$2350/kW = A$2611/kW) in 2010 and decreasing in future periods at -0.6% pa (Frontier, 2009). The cost of OCGT and CCGT capacity is at the unit rate in ACIL-Tasman (2009), Table 35, increasing at +0.4% pa and +0.5% pa from 2030 to 2050.

As mentioned above, the OCGT and CCGT generators are less efficient when operating in back up mode for wind. These analyses assume that the electricity generation costs are 17% higher for CCGT and 34% higher for OCGT (Hawkins, 2009). However, only half the energy generated by these technologies is considered to be in back-up mode, so electricity cost is increased by 8.5% for CCGT and 17% for OCGT when operating in back-up mode.

Wind power is assumed to have an economic life of 25 years and gas 30 years. Wind and gas capacity installed in 2010 must be replaced in 2035 and 2040 respectively. The capital costs of replacing wind and gas at the end of their economic lives are calculated at the capital cost rate applicable for the year in which the replacement is commissioned.

Wind power requires significant additional capital expenditure for transmission and network management capability. Based on estimated costs for extra transmission capacity incurred because of wind generation in the USA, $1,000/kW of installed wind capacity is included (Gene Preston, pers. comm., 3 Nov 2009). The transmission cost for wind power raises the cost of electricity by an assumed $15/MWh on average (Gene Preston, Dec 2009, pers. comm. and EPRI, 2009a).

Option 5 – Solar Thermal and CCGT

This option is similar to Option 3 – Nuclear & CCGT but with solar thermal instead of nuclear.

The differences are:

1. The build rate of solar thermal capacity in this option (Option 5) is half the build rate of nuclear in Option 3 – Nuclear & CCGT

2. Therefore, the build rate of CCGT is higher in this option than in the Nuclear & CCGT option (to make up the energy difference). This means emissions are higher in the Solar & CCGT option than in the Nuclear & CCGT option.

3. Solar thermal capacity has an assumed life expectancy of 25 years so replacement of solar thermal capacity begins 25 years after the first installation; so replacement begins in 2045.

4. Whereas nuclear would be built near population centres, where work force, infrastructure, suppliers and services are available, this is not the case for solar thermal [The NEEDS (2009) costs are based on constructing the Andasol 1 solar thermal power station in Spain. The cost of constructing widely distributed solar thermal power stations over an area of some 3000 km by 1000 km in Australia’s deserts will be higher than the cost of constructing in Spain – where there is well developed infrastructure and larger work force nearer to the sites. To construct the solar thermal power stations in areas throughout central Australia will require large mobile construction camps, fly-in fly-out work force, large concrete batch plants, large supply of water, energy and good roads to each power station. Air fields suitable for fly-in fly-out will be required at say one per 250 MW power station. That means we need to build such air fields at the rate of about two, then three, then four per year.]. Solar thermal needs to be built in areas of high insolation (deserts) and the power stations must be widely distributed to minimise the impacts of widespread cloud cover.

5. Transmission costs are included at the rate of $1,200/kW (derived from estimates in AEMO, 2009).

Solar thermal capacity is commissioned at the rate of 0.5 GW per year from 2020 to 2025, then at 0.75 GW per year to 2030, then at 1 GW per year to 2050. However, from 2040, some of the new build is for replacing existing old capacity. Solar thermal capacity is assumed to have the same capacity factor as nuclear, i.e. 90%. This is based on NEEDS (2008) which forecasts that solar thermal will have this capability by 2020 [There is an alternative to solar thermal with sufficient energy storage for 90% capacity factor. The alternative is solar thermal hybrid. Gas generates power when the sun isn’t shining and there is insufficient energy storage. The hybrid options emits much more CO2 than CST alone and the electricity costs are higher (EPRI, 2009a, page 10-20), although this comparison is made at a capacity factor of 34% not 90%. NEEDS argues that the solar thermal with 8000 full load hours energy storage will be available and electricity costs will be less than the hybrid option by 2020. The hybrid option is not included in the options considered here].

CCGT is commissioned at the rate needed to make up the difference between the energy that the solar thermal capacity can provide and the energy deficit caused by decommissioning the coal fired power stations.

From 2010 to 2019, negligible solar thermal is commissioned so CCGT is built at the same rate as in Option 2 – CCGT and Option 3 – Nuclear & CCGT. From 2020 to 2040 CCGT is being added because solar thermal is not being built fast enough to replace the coal capacity being decommissioned. By 2040 all coal capacity has been decommissioned. So, from 2040 less energy is being required from CCGT. This shows up, in this simple analysis, as reduction in CCGT capacity. The practical interpretation of the reduction of CCGT capacity is that the Natural Gas generation capacity would be reduced at this rate. What this means is that the Natural Gas generation would not be replaced at the end of its 30 year economic life. This begins from about 2040. Figure 5 shows how much energy is produced by each technology.

CO2 emissions for solar thermal are assumed to be zero (refer Table 1). CO2 emissions for coal, CCGT and the other technologies are calculated in the same way as for Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT. The negative emissions shown against CCGT should actually be a reduction in emissions from ‘Natural Gas’ but for simplicity they are shown as negative against CCGT.

The capital cost calculations for this option are similar to those for Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT, except that the capital cost of transmission is added and the capital cost of replacing retiring solar thermal capacity is included from 2045. The capital cost of the solar thermal capacity is based on adjusted unit rates from NEEDS (2008), Figure 3.11, Case B [The ‘learning rates’, and hence the costs, in the NEEDS report seem optimistic (see Appendix 2)]. The rates are adjusted to attempt to make them more consistent with the way the ACIL-Tasman (2009) rates were derived. Two adjustments were made. Firstly, the initial capital cost unit rate is adjusted up by 25% to allow for the greater cost of constructing widely distributed power stations across an area roughly 1000 km by 3000 km of Australia’s deserts. Secondly, the learning rate in NEEDS (2008) is replaced with the same rate of cost reduction as for nuclear in Option 3- Nuclear and CCGT.

The capacity factor assumed for solar thermal is the same as for nuclear, coal and gas. This requires that the solar thermal power stations have sufficient energy storage for 24 hour operation and can provide for 8,000 full-load hours per year. Needs (2008) forecast that this capability could be available by 2020. The additional capacity needed to ensure full power generation throughout winter and throughout periods of overcast weather (Lang, 2009b), is not allowed for in this analysis.

As for wind, transmission is a significant cost item for solar thermal. The capital expenditure for transmission for solar thermal is calculated at $1200/kW (based on estimates in AEMO, 2009). Electricity cost includes $15/MWh for transmission.

Option 6 – Solar Thermal, Wind and Gas

For this option, it is assumed that solar thermal is commissioned at the same rate as in Option 5 – Solar Thermal & CCGT. Wind, CCGT and OCGT are commissioned at the same rate as in Option 4 – Wind & Gas. The solar capacity does not reduce the amount of gas capacity needed to back-up for the wind capacity. Gas capacity required to back up for wind does not change but the amount of energy the gas generates does change, with the gas generators working at lower capacity factors.

The energy generated by solar thermal is the same as in Option 5 – Solar Thermal and CCGT. The energy generated by wind is the same as in Option 4 – Wind & Gas. The energy generated by OCGT and CCGT makes up the energy deficit. Figure 6 shows how much energy is produced by each technology.

CO2 emissions for wind and solar are assumed to be zero in this analysis (see Table 1). CO2 emissions for OCGT, CCGT, coal and the other seven technologies are calculated in the same way as for Option 4 – Wind and Gas.

The capital cost calculations for this option are similar to those for Option 4 – Wind & Gas and Option 5 – Solar Thermal & CCGT. The capital cost of the solar capacity in this option is the same as for Option 5 – Solar Thermal & CCGT. The capital cost of the wind capacity is the same as for Option 4 – Wind & Gas. The capital cost of the gas capacity is less than Option 4 – Wind & Gas because of the contribution from solar thermal; solar thermal provides its share of energy and the gas makes up the deficit. Transmission cost is included at $15/MWh for solar thermal and for wind.

Build rates

The rate of decommissioning coal and commissioning the replacement generating capacity, for each option, is summarised in Table 3. The figures in the shaded cells are prescribed inputs and the unshaded cells are calculated values.

Electricity Costs

The cost of electricity, for coal and the replacement technologies, was calculated for each option. The electricity costs were calculated by applying the electricity cost unit rate (see Table 4 and Appendix 2) to the proportion of energy generated by each technology. Appendix 2 explains the sources and derivation of the electricity cost unit rates for use in this analysis.

CO2 Avoidance Cost

The CO2 avoidance cost (the cost to avoid a tonne of CO2 emissions) was calculated for each option. It is the difference in electricity cost between Business as Usual and the respective option divided by the difference in CO2 emission between the Business as Usual and the respective option.

Results

The results of the analyses are summarised in Figures 7 to 12.

Figure 7 compares the total CO2 emissions per year from the six options.

Figure 8 compares the capital expenditure per 5 years for the six options. The capital expenditure is for coal and the replacement technologies only. The capital expenditure for the other seven technologies is the same for all options; these costs are not included in the total capital expenditure figures shown here.

Figure 9 compares the cumulative capital expenditure of the six options.

Figure 10 shows the long run marginal cost of electricity for coal and the replacement technologies only. These costs do not include the cost for the seven technologies that are the same in all options.

Figure 11 compares the options on the basis of the CO2 avoidance cost; i.e. the cost to avoid a tonne of CO2.

Discussion

The following can be interpreted from Figures 7 and 8:

Option 1 – Business as Usual produces the highest CO2 emissions by a large margin. Capital expenditure is fairly consistent at about $10 to $15 billion per 5 years, or about $2 to $3 billion per year.

Option 2 – CCGT has the highest emissions of the replacement options. It has the lowest capital cost of all options (although it has the highest operating cost). The CO2 emissions with this option are only slightly less in 2050 than in 2010. The reason the curve turns up from 2040 is that all coal fired power stations have been decommissioned. Therefore, CCGT is being added but no coal is being removed. So we are adding emissions from the CCGT without cutting any from coal generation.

Option 3 – Nuclear and CCGT has the lowest CO2 emissions from 2020. It has the lowest capital expenditure, except Business as Usual and CCGT, for most of the period from 2010 to 2050. From 2035 the capital expenditure rate decreases.

Option 4 – Wind, with CCGT and OCGT for back-up, produces slightly lower CO2 emissions than the CCGT. However, this is achieved at high cost – about $4 billion to $6 billion per year more than CCGT. The step up in expenditure in 2040 is for replacement of the wind capacity installed in 2015. The emissions increase from 2040 as electricity demand increases and once the coal generators have been decommissioned.

Option 5 – Solar Thermal and CCGT. Solar thermal capacity is built at half the rate of nuclear, and provides half the energy. CCGT must be built faster in the solar option than in the nuclear option to make up the energy deficit. The CO2 emissions from 2010 to 2019 are the same for the three options CCGT, Nuclear & CCGT and Wind & CCGT. From 2020, the CO2 emissions from the solar thermal option are higher than from the nuclear option. By 2050, the CO2 emissions from the solar thermal option are over three times those from the nuclear option, and increasing as electricity demand increases. The capital expenditure for the solar option is substantially higher than for nuclear throughout.

Option 6 – Solar, Wind and Gas is a combination of Options 4 and 5. CO2 emissions are the second lowest from 2020 to 2050. Importantly, this option requires around $5 billion to $6 billion per year higher capital expenditure than nuclear to 2030. From 2030 to 2050 the difference in capital expenditure blows out to over $10 billion per year higher rate of expenditure for this option.

Figure 9 shows the cumulative capital cost and Figure 10 shows the long run marginal cost of electricity (LRMC). The following can be interpreted from these two charts:

CCGT is the lowest cost option throughout the period from 2010 to 2050.

Nuclear & CCGT has the lowest total cost (cumulative capital expenditure) of all options except Business as Usual and CCGT. The electricity cost for the Nuclear & CCGT option peaks in 2045 then starts to decrease as Natural Gas is decommissioned.

The steep rise in capital expenditure and electricity cost for the Wind option and the Solar Thermal and Wind option is because of the high cost of Wind and because Wind is being added at the rate of 1.4 GW per year from 2011, which is three times the rate Wind was commissioned in 2008.

The options with wind and solar thermal produce the highest cost electricity throughout.

The cumulative capital expenditure for the Solar Thermal option is about 30% higher than for nuclear. This is despite the fact that the solar thermal capacity is being built at half the rate of nuclear.

Important to note: The electricity cost for the Solar Thermal, Wind and Gas option is higher than the Solar Thermal and CCGT option. This indicates that combining renewable energy generators does not reduce the cost.

Figure 11 compares the options on the basis of the cost of avoiding a tonne of CO2 emissions. The CCGT option has the lowest avoidance cost to 2035 and then the Nuclear & CCGT option is lowest thereafter. The difference, in 2015, between the options that have Wind in their mix ($163/tCO2-e) and those that do not (50/tCO2-e) is because wind with gas back up is far more expensive but avoids insignificant extra emissions (see Figure 7). In the long run, Nuclear & CCGT is the least cost way to reduce emissions from electricity generation. The options with Wind and Solar are the highest cost way to avoid emissions.

How achievable are the assumed build rates?

The build rate for Business as Usual has been achieved consistently to date, so there can be no doubt that it is achievable.

The build rate for CCGT is about twice the build rate for coal in the Business as Usual case and about 15 times the current build rate for Natural Gas generation plant.

The build rate for wind capacity (1.4 GW per year) is about 3 times the build rate achieved in 2008 (0.48 GW) (GWEC, 2008). For comparison, in 2008 USA installed 8.4 GW and China 6.3 GW (GWEC, 2009). Interestingly, developed countries with larger economies than Australia, installed not much more than Australia, e.g. Canada (0.5 GW). AER (2009), Table 1.4 shows a peak for proposed commissioning of 2.8 GW in 2011. In practice, the build rate for wind will be limited by transmission capacity and the amount of wind power that can be accepted by the grid. The assumed build rate of 1.4 GW per year (500-700 turbines a year based on current turbine sizes) seems achievable in the future.

The rate of commissioning nuclear from 2020 to 2025 is 1 GW per year. That is equivalent to one new reactor per mainland state every 5 years. To put this in perspective, France commissioned its Gen II nuclear power plants at the rate of 3 GW per year for two decades (WNA, 2009). And Japan, China and Korea have been building the new Gen III nuclear power plants in about 4 years. So, it would seem the build rate for nuclear assumed here could be achieved from 2020, if necessary.

The assumed rate of commissioning solar thermal in these analyses, seems highly optimistic. The quantity of steel and concrete required is an indication of the amount of construction effort required. Solar thermal requires about 8 times more concrete and 15 times more steel than nuclear per MW of capacity (Table 5). The build rate for solar thermal, assumed in these analyses, is half the rate of nuclear, so each year we would need to construct solar thermal plants comprising 4 times more concrete and seven times more steel than the nuclear plants. But that’s not all. Nuclear would be built relatively close to the population centres, where services, infrastructure and work force is more readily available. Conversely, the solar plants need to be built in the desert regions. They will require four times as much water (for concrete) as nuclear. Water pipe lines will need to be built across the desert to supply the water. Dams will need to be built in the tropical north to store water and desalination plants along the coast elsewhere. To develop and retain a skilled work force to work in such regions will be costly. Work will be for about 9 months of the year to avoid the hottest periods. Based on the quantities of steel and concrete, towns will be required in the desert that accommodate about four times the work force required for constructing a nuclear power station. Fly-in-fly-out airports will need to be built for each town with a capability to move much larger numbers of people than the largest mining operations. Two such towns and airfields must be built per year to achieve the solar thermal build rate. It is hard to imagine how a build rate for solar thermal could be even 1/10th the build rate that could be achieved with nuclear.

The build rate for nuclear would be difficult to achieve. But the build rates for solar thermal would be much more difficult to achieve.

Sensitivity to assumptions and inputs

The results are highly sensitive to some of the assumptions and inputs. The most sensitive inputs are the projections of future capital cost, electricity cost, and the development rates for solar thermal. However, the ranking of the options under different inputs, and therefore the conclusions are robust over the ranges tested.

Answers to the questions

This paper set out to address the two questions stated in the Introduction, viz.:

1. Does it make sense to build wind power as fast as possible until 2020, at least, so we can cut greenhouse gas emissions as quickly as possible and start cutting as early as possible?

2. Would a mix of technologies be better able to meet the demand and do so at lower cost? For example, would a mix of solar and wind be lower cost than either alone, and lower cost than nuclear?

Figure 11 provides the answers.

The answer to Question 1 is ‘No’. Figure 11 shows the emissions avoidance cost for the options without wind is $50/tCO2-e and for the options with wind is $163/tCO2-e in 2015. In 2020, the ranking is the same but the costs are higher (see Figure 11).

The answer to Question 2 is ‘No’. The option with the mix of Solar Thermal and Wind has the highest avoidance cost of all options. It has the highest capital expenditure by far (Figures 8 and 9), and the highest electricity cost (figure 10). Its CO2 emissions are greater than the nuclear option. It has no advantages.

Figure 12 summarises the position in 2050. The figure compares the six options on the basis of the electricity cost of the coal and replacement technologies and the total CO2 emissions per year for each option. Clearly, the Nuclear and CCGT option produces the lowest emissions and the cost penalty is marginally higher than CCGT.

Conclusions

The Nuclear power option will enable the largest cut in CO2-e emissions from electricity generation.

The Nuclear option is the only option that can be built quickly enough to make the deep cuts required by 2050.

The Nuclear option is the least cost of the options that can cut emissions sustainably.

Wind and solar are the highest cost ways to cut emissions.

A mixture of solar thermal and wind power is the highest cost and has the highest avoidance cost of the options considered. Mixing these technologies does not reduce the cost, it increases the cost.

The results are sensitive to the input assumptions and input data, but the ranking of the options, and therefore the conclusions, are robust to the changes of inputs tested.

——————————————————————

For more information on assumptions and calculations, with references to source material, please read the 32-page PDF version.

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By Barry Brook

Barry Brook is an ARC Laureate Fellow and Chair of Environmental Sustainability at the University of Tasmania. He researches global change, ecology and energy.

342 replies on “Emission cuts realities for electricity generation – costs and CO2 emissions”

Douglas Wise,

I am also not an economist and I also hope that some others will comment on uyour post.

I understand your aim but I have great difficulty with the proposed solution. I’ve seen an enormous amount of picking winners and the Mandatory Renewable Energy Targets is the most blatantly obvious. What an idiotic policy that is.

I think us asking governments to raise the price of energy is just about as idiotic (other than what ever needs to be doe to include internalise externalities).

The reason I say it is bad policy to raise the price of energy is because the very large proportion of people living in the developing and under-developed countries are going to go through the transition that China and India are going through now. It will definitely happen. It will either happen using coal or nuclear. The best thing the West can do to help cut GHG emissions is to lower the cost of clean energy relative to fossil fuel energy so that when these countries transiotn they use nuclear instead of coal.

Raising the price of fossil fule energy in Australia, EU, USA doesn’t achieve that. What is need is the focus on reducing the price of nuclear by half, not in increasing the cost of fossil fuels (other than including the externalities).

We keep focusing most of our research effort and funding and incentives on renewable energy. There is no hope of that going anywhere. We should turn all that effort into getting the cost of nuclear down asap. Most of the research is needed in the social engineering rather than the technical engineering. We need to work out how to completely turn over the opposition to nuclear and get it demanded.

I don’t believe raising the price of energy is the right way to go about this problem. As long as governments continue to play with wind and solar instead of getting out and explaining why we must go nuclear there wil be no serious progress. The ETS is for several purposes: collect more revenue for spendthrift governments to waste, provide a new source of revenue for banks, traders, gas companies, renewable energy businesses and researchers, and more jobs for the bureaucracy. There are plenty of winners. But overall we lose.

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Peter Lang

Thanks for your response. Obviously, we are not in agreement but I am in no way claiming that my stance is better than yours.

Some of your conclusions appear to be predicated upon your view that “a very large [proportion of people living in the developing and under-developed countries are going to go through the transition that China and India are going through now. It will definitely happen.”

This may be a noble aspiration but I am by no means convinced that it will definitely happen. It is, in my view, as likely that some developed nations with high population densities and which rely on imports for their food and energy requirements(e.g. UK) may descend into poverty

As an aside, I would predict that, should such a descent occur, fertility rates would decline rather than increase. You suggest that the converse, namely an increase in living standards, will lead to population reduction. I believe this only starts to happen when populations with increasing wealth become so driven to acquire more material possessions that their only chance of meeting these aspirations is by “reducing their biological fitness” and having less children. This might explain why first generation immigrants to the developed world initially outbreed the indigenous population. In other words, it is the perception of poverty rather than the acquisition of wealth that is likely to cause populations to decline. This leads me to the conclusion that, without Chinese style coercion or tax penalties on large families, it is unlikely that population growth will become negative until a large (and globally dangerous) lag time, particularly when or if welfare is doled out to non aspirational people.

To revert to the main theme, I would argue that your approach does little or nothing to enhance efficiency of energy use. Of course, you may not deem this necessary if one is using affordable fossil fuel free energy. My counter to this would be the time factor.

In fact, it is the time factor that leads me to wonder if it is really sufficient to aim for a level playing field. Progress would surely be quicker with a playing field tipped in favour of non fossil fuel energy. If you don’t like picking winners, don’t discriminate between nuclear, renewables and CCS coal. However, it is obvious to me that your winning pick would be nuclear and you have also been, in large part, responsible for making it mine.

You don’t want energy to be made more expensive for the “people”. Tax and dividend, as advocated by Dr Hansen, would overcome this by returning the dividend to the people but have the advantage of encouraging efficiency and accelerating the drive towards non carbon energy.

I cannot decide how this could be effected in one segment of the globe only without taxing imports from non participating areas. At a push, one might consider going easy on tariffs for exports from poorer nations provided they agreed to breed less fast or burn less forest (I would distinguish this from ETS-type offsets of which I don’t approve.) One might also consider a levy from the developed nations to finance nuclear power in the hot wet tropics, part of which would be mandated for accelerated mineral weathering to lower atmospheric CO2 levels if such was deemed necessary by climate scientists and if it was regarded as economically sensible.

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PHEW!!
What a marathon that was. Congratulations to all contributors and especially to you Peter Lang for a great analysis of the various energy options. It has reaffirmed with strong back up statistics what Colin Keay summarized in his booklet, Nuclear Energy Gigawatts. I’m glad that you and Barry will publish it. I appreciate that we in Australia must have this debate about nuclear power but would just add that surely most/all of the nuclear countries [33 currently, and increasing to 53 within a few years] have already had this debate. And the’ve all concluded that nuclear power is the best, most cost effective,safest,cleanest power source which will guarantee them energy security and without emissions. That’s why energy authorities around the world are saying things like “Any country serious about climate change will be serious about including nuclear power in their future energy mix.” It seems to me that we all need to get out there and spread the word to all of our politicians and to the people. Have any of you pro nukes, like me written to your local paper and exposed the people to the truth about nuclear power? I’ve been trying that for ten years, with some success. We just have to keep doing it. And keep at the pollies especially. I think Abbott is ready for a discussion. I’ve contacted him offering to speak to his people. Rudd didn’t want to know me when I offered tp speak to the ALP [I vote for them and have been a candidate on 5 occasions]. Let’s not keep all of this information to ourselves. Get out there and tell the masses.When they know the facts they’ll change their minds except for the likes of Jim Green who will never be persuaded by fact or reason. Sorry for that little tirade!!

Evnow If a plane hit a nuclear plant it would bounce off in bits and the plant would probably continue to operate. Ask James Lovelock

Douglas Wise
I loved your stories and your agreement with Steve Kirsch and Peter Lang that our only hope of salvation from catastrophic climate change is for the world to have a very large dose of nuclear power. If we could get it to 35% of total world electricity by 2030, we could probably manage to reach our targets without the crippling ETS that we all seem to be facing.

To everyone again, thanks for a great effort. I really enjoyed the discussion. Special thanks to you again Peter. Excellent work.

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When they know the facts they’ll change their minds except for the likes of Jim Green who will never be persuaded by fact or reason.

I suspect that Jim Green is motivatd by darker considerations than ideological blindness. He’s too intelligent not to recognise the truth he publically denies. Indeed, the arguments he makes require a thorough knowledge of the issues and an understanding of their implications.He knows that nuclear power has all the virtues claimed by its supporters, and that the anti-nuclear case is false. Given his points of argument, he cannot not know. He knows, and persists in his anti-nuclear campaigning.

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To back up what Finrod wrote above I offer this quotation by Princeton philosopher Harry Frankfurt:

“It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to be false. “

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As for lowering the cost of NPPs, it seems the goal is to be able to build for less than US$2/W as that seems to be about the price for CCGTs. Someone may care to look into Nuscale’s modular approach as it appears that much of the construction can be done in a factory rather than in the field.

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To Peter Lang (and anyone else who would care to comment)
When you say we need a level playing field, but RD&D should be subsidized, doesn’t this create a slight contradiction?
Now the contradiction may not be relevant here (or I may just be wrong) but nuclear power (and as far as I can see most technological development) has been developed by the state at state expense.
Again it might not be relevant, but saying something should be developed by the state up to the point that it can just be handed over to the private enterprise so they can profit from it, which is what it sounds like you are saying, is a concept that bothers me.
Should I be bothered or am I just worried about nothing?

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David B Benson,

You say:

As for lowering the cost of NPPs, it seems the goal is to be able to build for less than US$2/W as that seems to be about the price for CCGTs.

No. That is a misunderstanding. Most of the cost of electricity from a CCGT is the cost of the fuel (natural gas). For nuclear, most of the cost is the repayment of capital and interest on the debt. Coal is between.

So roughly, the capital costs that would give equal cost electrcity might be something like nuclear $3/W, coal $2/W, CCGT $1/W. (conceptual figures only).

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Lawrence, on January 16th, 2010 at 11.27 — At least in the USA, utilities are required to provide power at the least possible cost. That means they have (almost) no funds available for D, much less R&D. So the DoE steps in to provide some funding to be matched by potential vendors of generating equiment, coal, gas and (especially) nuclear. [Maybe also solar and wind, I don’t know, but none for geothermal.]

Eventually a technology becomes so mature that it makes little sense to do further R&D; that is DoE’s position with regards to geothermal.

In any case, some sort of review panels need to be set up to assess which technologies should receive some taxpayer funded support. I would prefer the funds came from utility customers rather than taxpayers, but that’s not how it works these days.

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@Lawrence:

Some technologies can be developed to the point of commercial viability for practical large-scale electrical generating capacity (be it baseload, peak or whatever), and some cannot. Would you then request eternal subsidies for an inadequate technology just because an adequate one recieved some timely facilitation at its birth?

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Lawrence You ask:

When you say we need a level playing field, but RD&D should be subsidized, doesn’t this create a slight contradiction?

Yes, I agree. I included that cavet because I often get accused of not allowing for any state RD&D (such as is being sppent on renewables). We’ve spent a lot on RD&D on renewable energy and a whole host of other energy end use efficiency and other measures over the past 20 years. I am not saying we should stop spending state funds on RD&D. What I am saying is that it has been misdirected by ideological beliefs. We need to stop picking winners. We need to stop allowing ideology and politics to misdirect how the research funding is used. Funding should be based on a fair assessment of likely return on investment and risk.

Yes, nuclear was directed by the state at great expense. But the expense per MWh of electricity generated is far less than we have spent on renewables.

Again it might not be relevant, but saying something should be developed by the state up to the point that it can just be handed over to the private enterprise so they can profit from it, which is what it sounds like you are saying, is a concept that bothers me.
Should I be bothered or am I just worried about nothing?

I agree with this concern given the way it stated here. I guess the alternative is that the state should not fund any directed research on anything. On that basis the only research the state would fund would be pure research (like astronomy, etc). If we took this to the extreme, there would be no state research on Health or other directed research that is clearly in the best interests of humanity. I’m exaggerating to make the point that there is a middle ground. I think we need to compare how we have directed enormous amount of our research effort to renewable energy for 20 years fo near zero return. And at the same time have banned almost any work on nuclear. There is almost no funding for it and virtually no nuclear engineering facilities in any of our higher education organisatrions.

I am not opposed to state owned electricity industry, but I am far from convinced that it will provide lower cost electricity over the long term than private ownership. For a parallel, we’ve had to move to private ownership of freeways, with tolls, because the state cannot get the finances together to build them. If we can’t get the public funds to build freeways how can we hope to find the capital to build and maintain the electricity supply industry properly? With public ownership the problem of poor management goes above the electricty industry up to the bureaucrats in the overarching department and then up to the Minister, the politicians and those who set the polical party’s policy. I am not convinced that public ownereship of electricity is better than private ownereship with appropriate regulation (as light as practicable).

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Douglas Wise,

Thank you for another thought-provoking post. As you mention, we do agree on much but disagree on the optimum level of state regulation and what I call “picking winners”.

Overnight it occurred to me two examples of ‘picking winners’ that demonstrates how powerful we are at doing it and yet how bad our picks can be. One example is “picking a loser” and the other is “preventing a winner”.

1. Picking a loser – Renewable energy

2. Preventing a winner – Nuclear energy

We’ve been preventing nuclear from replacing coal for 40 years (since the early 1970’s when the anti-nuclear groups became successful at shutting down and slowing construction of nuclear power stations. We’ve weighed nuclear down with excess regulatory baggage.

Conversely, renewables has had a dream run.

You say:

In fact, it is the time factor that leads me to wonder if it is really sufficient to aim for a level playing field. Progress would surely be quicker with a playing field tipped in favour of non fossil fuel energy.

I agree that time is a major consideration. But let’s think what we could achieve in Australia if we really wanted to. Let’s consider two scenarios:

1. Both major political parties in all states and territories endorse nuclear power as an option for Australia, and both agree to pass laws to clear the way ahead. BUT, the major political parties argue over who will make it safer and who’s electorate it wont be in.

2. As for option 1, both major political parties in all states and territories endorse nuclear power as an option for Australia, and both agree to pass laws to clear the way ahead. But, in this case, they don’t spar over safety and sighting, they spar over who can set up the best regime to implement clean energy at least cost quickest.

What a difference that would make to how quickly we can get low emission, low cost electricity in Australia.

Surely, we could start at a capital cost well below the price of US$3.7/W that has been awarded to a Korean consortium for the four 1.35GW units in UAE. Surely a bid for the same in Australia should be much less given the following:

1. Korea will have had experience with building the UAE reactors by the time they get to bid for the Australian plants, so Korea would be well down the learning curve by then. Say $3/W to $3.5/W (in 2010 $). Other consortium will be hungry to get a look in too. There will be competition from Japan, USA, France, Russia, China.

2. We have a larger proportion of our workforce suitably educated and able to handle the building on NPP’s than UAE does. Much of the cost of the Korean bid would be to cover for this problem, I expect.

3. We have excellent universities and education facilities near to where I want the NPP’s to be built, so the new nuclear engineering facilities can work hand in glove with the NPP’s so both the universities and the power station benefit.

I cannot accept that Australia cannot have its first NPP commissioned by 2020, and at a capital cost in the $3/W to $3.2/W range if we could get our act together. It really is up to the politicians to act and to lead the community. And it is up to us (the Australian public) to convince them to do so.

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Ok, I’m slightly amazed to have received the feedback I got.
I’m not particularly smart, just slightly bothered by my logic circuits is all. The ends justifies the means and all that, provided it’s humane.
My feeling is that I’m learning about all the weirdness that’s going on, and I just wish it wasn’t going on, and we could just implement the most sustainable and most useful power producing systems possible. Right now, it’s the IFR or LFTR (I simply can’t figure out which) ASAP. If we have to go through GenIII(+) to get there then fine.
My point may well have been academic, I’m simply not smart enough to know.
So please ignore what follows if you would rather.

David Benson said
“At least in the USA, utilities are required to provide power at the least possible cost. That means they have (almost) no funds available for D, much less R&D.”
etc
And how is this sustainable?

Finrod said
“Would you then request eternal subsidies for an inadequate technology just because an adequate one recieved some timely facilitation at its birth?”
No, and I’m pretty sure you mistake my nuclear orientation. I’m all for it.

Peter Lang said
“I am not saying we should stop spending state funds on RD&D. What I am saying is that it has been misdirected by ideological beliefs. We need to stop picking winners.”
And Einstein said something like you can tell the right theory because it is so nice it kindof picks itself. Which requires an observer, who is nevertheless subjective, who then puts the theory down on paper, and presents it to others.

Someone has to pick the winners. Before you can pick the winners, someone has to to a lot of different research. Someone has to pay for that.

If it’s necessary to do it this way i.e. the state does all the research, then you hand off the winners to private enterprise, well ok. But gosh, that’s quite an amazing schism in the middle isn’t it.

It’s probably not a relevant point I’m making, to the point that we just have to move to (more) sustainable energy production. For what it’s worth, nuclear power is my pick (I’m sorry William Schreiber), and I can’t figure out if it should be the IFR or the LFTR (although my low-IQ guess is that the LFTR is a better technology).

All I’ve done is wonder about whether what seems to me as Peter Lang’s market orientation is completely logical.

In any case, I certainly hope everyone here – perhaps even Jim Green! – will opt for that which really works, and provides the energy we need to create a sustainable future. I’m sure the majority of you know how to get there better than I do.

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Lawrence,

I am not quite as strongly pro free market as I am aruing here. But there are several people who are a long wa to the state ownership end of the spectrcum, and many of my points are sort of aimed at offsetting their perspective. I wrote up on another post that the introduction of nuclear in Australia may have to be managed by a state owned organisation – somewhat like a modern version of the Snowy Mountains Scheme.

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Finrod said
“Would you then request eternal subsidies for an inadequate technology just because an adequate one recieved some timely facilitation at its birth?”
No, and I’m pretty sure you mistake my nuclear orientation. I’m all for it.

My apologies if I’ve offended. I wasn’t sure where you were coming from there.

I’m sure there are various financing models for nuclear power development and implimentation which will work more or less effectively.

My own philosophical position is generally free-enterprise libertarian, but of practical neccessity I think we need to recognise that the energy production and distribution system and associated environmental and economic issues are matters of existential importance for modern civilisation. A case can certainly be made for government oversight, including facilitating R&D and supporting FOAK projects.

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Yah, it becomes an intellectual exercise – for where have we seen “free-enterprise libertarian” actually in place enough to judge if it could work – or any other model other than what we’ve all been living with for quite a while – which is some-kind-of-liberal-democratic-capitalist-etc model.
I really don’t know what works best, I mostly only hope, against the odds, to get out of this life situation alive.

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Oh I think in my low-IQ way I get it Peter, Godel was right – nothing really works.
I’m just a bit uncomfortable about it all given what seems to me a big contradiction living somewhere in the middle.
But the fossil fuels are a bad solution, so lets move to the only thing with more energy density, for which practicable solutions have been worked out, as soon as may be. And let’s hope that it’s as affordable as I think it should be, and not infact necessarily subject to economic constraints that prevent us from getting there.
I believe my job depends upon it.

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Douglas Wise,

You say

It is, in my view, as likely that some developed nations with high population densities and which rely on imports for their food and energy requirements(e.g. UK) may descend into poverty.

Maybe, but such countries are insignificant in the scheme of things (joke alert!). More seriously, the population of rich countries that might decline into poverty, as you suggest here, will be miniscule compared with the populations of Asia, Africa and South America that will emerge from relative poverty. So, to me this argument is messing in the weeds while avoiding the main problem. By the way, as my aside, the reason that UK is slipping down is because of its “government involved in everything” policies. The mandating of wind power and long term wind down of its nuclear power, until recently are just two examples. If we want politicians and bureaucrats to run everything (as Russia tried) we’ll get what is happening in the UK.

As an aside, I would predict that, should such a descent occur, fertility rates would decline rather than increase. You suggest that the converse, namely an increase in living standards, will lead to population reduction. I believe this only starts to happen when populations with increasing wealth become so driven to acquire more material possessions that their only chance of meeting these aspirations is by “reducing their biological fitness” and having less children.

I believe high population growth rate is a result of poverty and low opulation growth rate is a result of having options for a more fullfilling life. People in the developed countries want ‘life balance’. They want to be able to study and persue a career in prefernce to simply feeding the kids, washing, and gathering cow dung to cook and heat. I think this chart supports my argument very well. Notice that the higher the electrcity consumptions per person the lower is the fertility rate. You can change the variable on the axes and change between log and linear scales. Also press play to see the change over time. Notice how countries move from top right towards the bottom left. This shows that as we use more electrcity the fertility rate declines.

http://graphs.gapminder.org/world/#$majorMode=chart$is;shi=t;ly=2003;lb=f;il=t;fs=11;al=30;stl=t;st=t;nsl=t;se=t$wst;tts=C$ts;sp=6;ti=2005$zpv;v=0$inc_x;mmid=XCOORDS;iid=pyj6tScZqmEcKxvG4lnIreQ;by=ind$inc_y;mmid=YCOORDS;iid=phAwcNAVuyj0TAlJeCEzcGQ;by=ind$inc_s;uniValue=8.21;iid=phAwcNAVuyj0XOoBL%5Fn5tAQ;by=ind$inc_c;uniValue=255;gid=CATID0;by=grp$map_x;scale=log;dataMin=5.71;dataMax=28213$map_y;scale=log;dataMin=0.855;dataMax=8.7$map_s;sma=49;smi=2.65$cd;bd=0$inds=

If the long link to the actual chart doesn’t work for you, then go to http://www.gapminder.org, and select the following:

Y-axis: Children per womanfertility rate, ‘log’ scale
X axis: Electrcity consumption, per person (select: Energy/Consumption per person/Electricity consumption, per person). Select ‘log’ scale.

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Lawrence, on January 16th, 2010 at 13.38 asks “how is this sustainable?” I don’t know that it is, but the economists convinced all the utility regulatory commisions to break power into three separate companies in each region:
(1) power generation
(2) transmission
(3) distribution
with at least (1) in a cost-competative marketpalce. So the power producers have no incentive to contribute $$ to shared R&D. To the extent that the equipement suppliers do not commit to continuing R&D, currently DoE picks up some of the tab.

I find this all far from idea, but there it is.

Sustainable, to me, implies almost no resource extraction. While natgas is in plentiful supply, coal is less so. Please read David Rutledge’s article about the comeing Peak Coal on TheOilDrum.

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David B. Benson, on January 17th, 2010 at 7.00

Emission cuts realities for electricity generation – costs and CO2 emissions

Oh believe me I’ve spent some time on TOD. And I know who Dave Rutledge is. It’s clear that Richard Heinberg’s phrase Peak Everything is a good nutshell description of living on a finite planet.
Everything winds down in time – I think I read that James Lovelock thinks Gaia will only work for another 500 million years because the sun is heating up and it will in that time produce more heat than the current (and presumably any conceivable) biota can moderate.
All I know about all this is we should be implementing the LFTR/IFR ASAP. There’s even a current thread on talk-polywell about using the LFTR
http://www.talk-polywell.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1397&sid=968e31c214fa5e21b92ff40f4ca61817
and those guys are generally not fond of any competition.
My question, probably a distraction from the practical need to just get on with it, was an overall one about how the arguments this way and that don’t seem consistent to me when they appeal to some overall schema like a level playing field. But I’m perhaps practical enough to know that, inconsistent philosophies aside, we gotta put in place something that can give us what fossil fuels have given us i.e. a huge energy advantage, without the downside that it’s going to run out or destroy the planet any time soon, and clearly it’s nuclear.

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Lawrence, on January 17th, 2010 at 10.58 — Perhaps it is unavoidably inconsistent, in part because people are affected, one way or another, by large engineering projects such as power production sites.

I fear that starting right away it will be 15+ years before there are LFTRs. So in the nonce, try CCGTs equipped with algae ponds for a closed carbon electrical power source; except for the fairly large land requirement, ought to work in some locations and Australia probably has those.

I don’t think of this scheme as more than a fractional player, say 20–25%, but very nice if it works. Be helpful if someone would do a small demonstration project to finish working out the operational details.

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David B. Benson, on January 17th, 2010 at 11.53

Yeah, algae.
I don’t remember what I read or where, but the numbers appear to add up to something like $50-100/gallon for algae biofuel.
Certainly, like everything else, let’s do demo’s of things. If you can convince TPTB to do it. A company called Valcent tried to make a go of it and went, basically, out of business, at least in El Paso wrt their algae research.
Anyway, if you’re asking me to consider anything that requires a lot of IQ to absorb, you’re asking the wrong guy. I can only absorb the most obvious stuff, and it’s only obvious to me that there is some hold up involving Wall St and the US Govt that prevents the USA from getting on with being truly productive, and one of the lead components of that is that the USA has developed planet saving technology in the form of advanced nuclear power technology that is not being implemented anything like as fast as it should be.

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Lawrence, on January 17th, 2010 at 12.08 — The idea is convert algae in biogas and maybe refine into biomethane; appears much less expensive that making even biodiesel. I think the costs compare approximately with the costs of natgas, but a pilot project is required to be certain.

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Peter Lang. Jan 16th.

Your views on human fertility rates follow the demographic transition theory and are certainly fairly mainstream. However, this theory is not without its critics. Might I refer you to the work of Virginia Aberhnethy (plenty of info available on google)?

I find no fault in your criticism of the UK’s current Government. However, I cannot agree with your suggestion that nations likely to nosedive with respect to economic well being are insignificant in number relative to those that will prosper.

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Douglas Wise,

I’ve just realised I didn’t reply to your last comment.

I have not read the theories. I’ve followed the UN projections and some of the UN Human Development Index stats from time to time. The opinion I expressed above is based on what I’ve gleaned from those and especially my interpretation of the charts we can all plot on Gapminder (I gave a link above to a chart I made for the purpose of the discussion; it charts fertility rates versus electricity consumption per capita. You can slide the scale at the bottom of the chart or press ‘Play’ to cycle through time and see how fertility rates have declined as people have consumed more electricity). To me these stats are so clear that any theory that does not fit with these stats is false. I agree these are historical figures so there is room for discussion as to what the future may hold. I also agree that correlation is not proof ocf cause.

You say:

I cannot agree with your suggestion that nations likely to nosedive with respect to economic well being are insignificant in number relative to those that will prosper.

Firstly I don’t accept that the nations are likely to nosedive as you suggest. However, if some do, what I meant was that the total population of such nations is small compared with the population of the nations that will emerge from poverty. What I actually said was:

the population of rich countries that might decline into poverty, as you suggest here, will be miniscule compared with the populations of Asia, Africa and South America that will emerge from relative poverty.

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Peter

Thanks for your response. I mentioned Virginia Abernethy but realised that I had previously mistyped her name. I think the effect of increased prosperity may well eventually lead to a drop in human fertility but indirectly and not before the advertising industry and other influences have sold the relevant population on the joys of materialism and the need to “keep up with the Jones”. There thus may be much more of a time delay than you envisage and the effect may depend on competition for for the type of tat that many of us acquire but which the greens tell us we should forego.

Economics remain something of a mystery to me but it strikes me that you are remarkably sanguine about the prospects of net increases in living standards, given the economic recession, approaching peak oil and the necessity to reduce CO2 emissions. I really hope you are right but I think that even you would consider that any improvement will depend on rapid rollout of nuclear power. So far, only Asian states seem to be exhibiting the necessary levels of urgency.

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Douglas Wise,

In a previous post you commented that you use history to guide your thinking. If you do, then surely you would be persuaded that man has improved his standard of living, health, etc since the days of the cave dwellers. And this improvement has been virtually continuous and gone hand in hand with his ability to harnessing energy.

Also, throughout history there have been the doom and gloom merchants. There is always a new theory as to why these trends that have been established for 10,000 years are suddenly going to stop.

I see history as telling me that we are going to continue to improve our lot, the poor will improve their lot faster than the rich, the gap will close, we will manage the problems that face us and do it well.

Spending a bit of time on GapMinder will show very convincing evidence for what I’ve said above. It’s well woorth looking at the demonstration by Hans Rosberg too. Supplement these UN statistics with a look at energy use per capita, and per GDP, life expectancy etc. over a long time and you will be even more convinced. I have a chart that shows per capita energy consumption over the past 10,000 years. And charts showing how nations go through a beta curve of rising energy intensity and then decreasing. All nations do this and nations are at a differenct position on the curve. The industrialised and wealthy nations are progressing down from the peak energy intensity. Developing nations are on the up slope.

Regarding nuclear energy you say:

… any improvement will depend on rapid rollout of nuclear power. So far, only Asian states seem to be exhibiting the necessary levels of urgency.

If we get serious about GHG emissions we can roll out nuclear. If we really believed we needed to we could commission one nuclear plant in each mainland state per year. That is 5 GW per year. At that rate we’d have sufficient capacity to power the NEM’s 2007 demand in 6 years.

What would be the cost. If we were really wanted to, we could build nuclear plants for a price that would produce electricity cheaper than coal. If we say the settled down cost in today’s dollars is $2.5/W, then the capital expendityre would be $12.5 billion per year spread across five states.

What do we need to do? Get on with it !!

We need strong political leadership. The facts are clear. But there is political advantage in running anti-nuclear campaigns to win elections. If our leaders really thought GHG’s were a problem, there’d be no question about whethjer or not we need to get on with nuclear power as quickly as possible. There’d be no nonsense about “do you want one in your back yard?”, their’d be no argument that nuclear is far safer and environmentally benign than coal. Instead, the argument would be between the major political parties as to which has the better policies to implement nuclear fastests and at least cost for the long term.

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Peter Lang: 21st Jan

I don’t really disagree with you from the broad brush point of view.

I agree with your first paragraph. It is likely, as I have previously said, that fertility levels will drop with increasing prosperity. It is the proximate cause of the drop that we may disagree over. If Abernethy’s hypothesis is correct, one could expect the fall in fertility to kick in half to one generation more slowly than if it were to follow Demographic Transition Theory.

You correctly assert, in your second paragraph, that history has at all times been replete with doom mongers. Most of my friends, who get on with their lives with little or no thought about peak oil, global warming and solutions thereto, would certainly use this argument (that doomers be ignored) and be convinced that technology will solve all the problems of the future. However, without the doomers, there may be no appreciation of an impending problem and thus no ready technofix.

You also argue convincingly that technology could, indeed, come to the rescue, provided that it is nuclear technology and provided that politicians enable it to be deployed soon enough. However, it as at this stage that you start to wobble because you profess little faith in politicians. Does this make you a doom merchant or merely an agnostic?

Peter, I’m really not trying to pick a fight with you and I think your work on relative costings is an extremely valuable way of convincing politicians to do the right thing. I just think that you are somewhat optimistic to think that we can fix global warming and eliminate global poverty all at the same time in a space of less than a century but good luck to you.

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Douglas Wise,

I know you are not picking a fight. I find it an interesting disussion and even though it is way outside the scope of this thread, everyone else has departed for more interesting pastures, so I thought no harm to persue the discussion a bit further and learn a lot as I go. I really apprreciate your contribution and stimulation. As I say, this subject is way outside my area of expertise, but very interesting.

You say:

I just think that you are somewhat optimistic to think that we can fix global warming and eliminate global poverty all at the same time in a space of less than a century but good luck to you.

I don’t mean to say that. We won’t completely eliminate poverty, but it will improve over time. I believe we will improve our management of our resources and will manage polution better than we do now. In general, I believe we will continue to improve what we do. I am frustrated with politicians in the short term, but they respond to what the population wants them to do. Over the longer term they do respond as we want them to. I am frustrated about the 40 year delay in nuclear power in the ‘west’, but the politicians were responding to a strong but, in my opinion, wrong belief about nuclear held by the population.

Regarding pollution, the population at the moment wants it managed as long as the cost to them is not too great. At the moment the population is not persuaded that the ETS/CPRS will have a significant effect on the climate. They are not persuaded that the cost/benefit analysis favours an ETS/CPRS type policy approach.

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Lawrence, on January 17th, 2010 at 15.48 — Wasn’t aware of it. What I have in mind is simple and self-contained, just to generate electricity via closed carbon loop with a combined cycle gas turbine at one end and the algae farm at the other. Much less ambitious.

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Douglas Wise, on January 10th, 2010 at 1.14 you said:

Is there a simple, approximate way to translate capital costs into likely electricity costs?

I’ve back-calculated an expression from the ACIL-Tasman figurees:

Inputs:
Annualised capital, fixed O&M and tax costs (AFC) $/kW/yr)
Short Run Marginal Cost (SMRC) ($/MWh)
Capital cost (CC) ($/kW)
Capacity Factor (CF)
Anualised Fixed Costs / Capital Costs (AFC%) (%)

Expression:

Electricity Costs (EC) ($/MWh) = SRMC + CC * AFC% * 1000 / 8760 / CF

Example 1: Nuclear:

EC = $9.94 + $5207 * 13.1% * 1000 / 8760 / 85% = 101.4 $/MWh

Example 2: Black Coal, Super Critical, Air Cooled:

EC = $12.82 + $2291 * 13.1% * 1000 / 8760 / 85% = 53.0 $/MWh

Example 3: Combined Cycle Gas Turbine, Air Cooled:

EC = $36 + $1398 * 12.4% * 1000 / 8760 / 85% = 59.4 $/MWh

For comparison, ACIL-Tasman’s estimated electricity costs ($/MWh) in 2010 for these three examples are: $101.41, $52.97, $59.95.

From the ACIL-Tasman numbersI calculated the AFC% as follows:
coal and nuclear =13.1%;
OCGT = 11.5%;
CCGT (air cooled) = 12.4%;
CCGT (water cooled) = 12.8%.

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Douglas Wise, on January 10th, 2010 at 1.14 you asked:

What I have been unable to ascertain is how much capital cost one can afford for nuclear so that it can compete against new coal under the two following scenarios: a) without any internalisation of coal’s currently externalised non CO2 costs and b) with such internalisation.

Notice in my previous post that ACIL-Tasman calculates a theoretical cost of electricity from nuclear in 2010 as $101.41/MWh. The variable operating cost is $9.94/MWh. This comprises about 10% of the cost of electricity from nuclear. Of this, $4.94/MWh is the fuel cost. So fuel cost comprises about 5% and the other variable operating cost about 5% of the cost of electricity from nuclear.

Since the fixed costs (capital, financing and fixed O&M costs) comprise some 90% of the cost of electricity from nuclear, we must focus on reducing the capital cost if we want to cut the cost of electricity from nuclear.

I believe that the capital cost is elevated because of 40 years of excessive regulation, compliance and bureaucracy. Why are we doing this given that nuclear is already some 10 to 100 times safer and less environmentally damaging than fossil fuel generated electricity? I would like Australians to focus on how we can have electricity from nuclear at a cost similar or less than coal.

I submit the following as evidence that we could have this if we wanted to:

1. Nuclear energy provides low-cost electricity in many other countries. Russia is building new nuclear plants to provide electricity for aluminium smelting for the world market. This is a clear indication that nuclear generated electricity can be amongst the lowest cost electricity in the world. If it were not, they could not produce aluminium at a price they can sell it competitively on the world market.

2. Another example is the United Arab Emirates which has just let contracts for 5,400 MW of nuclear power stations they claim will supply electricity at ¼ the cost of electricity generated by gas. And this is in the centre of the world’s oil regions.

What could we achieve in Australia with total political commitment and widespread public support? Let’s play with some ball park numbers.

ACIL-Tasman used A$5207/kW for a First of a Kind (FOAK) nuclear plant in Australia in 2010.

A contract for 5400 MW of FOAK nuclear plant has recently been awarded for US$3700/kW (= A$4100/kW). This is for a FOAK plant in UAE in 2010.

I’ll assume that an aggressive schedule such that Australia awards its first contract for its first plant in 2015, and by then Korean consortiums has won contracts for other plants elsewhere and have learnt a lot from the construction of the first plants in UAE. Given this and also that all documentation for Australia would be in English rather than Arabic, and Korea’s extensive construction experience in Australia already, I’ll assume the cost of the first plant in Australia will be contracted at a price 20% below the price for the UAU plants; i.e. $3280/kW

ACIL Tasman assumes 18% reduction in capital cost in the first 4 years after the first plant is commissioned in Australia, and the cost reductions will continue but at a reducing rate. I’ll assume 30% reduction in 10 years from commissioning of the first plant.
That is a reduction of $984. Therefore, the cost for first plant = $2296/kW.

Compare this with ACIL Tasman’s figure for Black Coal, ultra super critical, air cooled in 2025 of $2218/kW (all costs in constant 2010 $).

Let’s compare the cost of electricity from these two options in year 2029.

To calculate the cost of electrcity from Nuclear in 2029, substitute $2296 for $5207 in the expression in my previous post and reduce variable O&M cost by 20% to say $8/MWh (my assumption)

EC = $8 + $2296 * 13.1% * 1000 / 8760 / 85% = $48.33/MWh

Black Coal, Ultra Super Critical, air cooled (ACIL-Tasman, Table 52) = $48.36/MWh

The answer to part a) of your question:

What I have been unable to ascertain is how much capital cost one can afford for nuclear so that it can compete against new coal under the two following scenarios: a) without any internalisation of coal’s currently externalised non CO2 costs

is $2296 (constant 2010 $) in year 2029.

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Peter Lang: 21st Jan, 21.05

I am finding this discussion interesting but agree with you that it is somewhat off topic.

The reason I dragged in the subject of population growth was concern over so-called overshoot and its deleterious effects upon species other than our own. Without a supply of affordable energy to replace fossil fuels, I would guess that we are already in overshoot mode. I fully accept your thesis that renewables are not the solution in the short/medium term. With a much smaller global population (perhaps 2 billion) they might be but, even then, a nuclear solution would still probably be superior.

If you accept the premise above, I will next pose several possible scenarios:

1) We go with renewables and reject nuclear. We continue to use fossil fuels but with diminishing short term benefits as ERoEIs slump. Well placed richer nations maintain their populations reasonably well in the medium term but massive population crashes occur throughout much of the globe. Clearly, this is an ugly scenario but, nevertheless, it may or may not be the worst. This would depend upon whether the population crash was sufficiently great enough and/or timely enough to prevent runaway global warming in the longer term.
2) We rush to nuclear and attempt to make it globally available, so greatly reducing the chances of runaway climate change. This could have two possible consequences:
a) Benign. GDP/capita would rise and, simultaneously, global population numbers would fall.
b) Adverse. Global population would continue to increase and GDP/capita would stagnate or fall. In the medium term, other bottlenecks to sustainability would become manifest and lead to a massive human die off. This could be worse than scenario 1 because the die off would be delayed and involve more people by which time even more damage would have been done to other species and the environment.

Clearly, this is very over-simplified but I think it makes the case that, while rapid deployment of nuclear energy almost certainly has the potential to provide the most benign outcome, it can’t automatically be assumed that this potential will be realised. Meanwhile, it is totally politically incorrect even to discuss the true implications and possible benefits of scenario1 despite the fact that it is the preferred position of many greens from the first world. In effect, the populations of wealthy states would be deciding to save themselves and their progeny at the expense of those less fortunate. This might be sensible and logical but it is not something that these greens appear willing to admit to.

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Douglas Wise,

I’ll think about your questions and get back to yo.

In the meantime, I hope you might have time to look at the two posts I made today. These are more immediately important/urgent I believe. They answer two questions from one of your post of 10 January. I believe they are relevant to the energy and emissions policies soon to be debated in the Australian parliament. My reasi=on for wanting to debate this as much as possible is to try get the Australian population involved in discussing the policy options and the pros and cons in this election year. This is the year when we can have the greatest effect on what Australia’s policy will be for the next three years.

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Peter Lang: Jan 22nd 11.04 and 20.36

Your two posts were very illuminating and useful. Thank you very much for doing the calculations.

While I had realised that the variable operating costs for nuclear represented but a small proportion of total nuclear electricity costs, I had not appreciated that they were as low as 24% for coal. I assume, therefore, that the cost of the fuel in your coal fired plant example contributes no more than about 20% to the cost of the electricity emanating from it.

Unless I have failed to grasp something obvious or made an elementary mistake, I would conclude the following:
a) CCS coal is not necessarily such a daft idea as I had supposed from an economic perspective even though there will remain technical difficulties.
b) Nuclear fuel costs $4.94/MWh. Coal costs around $10.5/MWh. This differential of just over 2 is much less than I would have expected. I understand that uranium enrichment methods have been improved recently by a factor of 20. Does the $4.94 figure relate to fuel produced by the old or new method and, if the former, by how much would you expect the $4.94 to be reduced?

I am not for one moment suggesting that point b) is of any huge consequence relative to the capital cost issue for nuclear but I do think point a) deserves to be taken seriously (unless I have cocked up which is quite possible).

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Douglas Wise,

Yes, I agree, I think the cost of fuel for coal generators is a higher proportion of the total cost of electricity than these figures suggest. I also think the cost of fuel for nuclear is much lower than the ACIL-Tasman figures. I would need to look back at the EPRI and MIT reports to check the proportions (I include the references below in case you want to follow through on this). I do think the ACIL-Tasman figures are high for nuclear, as the recently awarded UAE contract demonstrates. I understand why reports on nuclear costs in Australia tend to be conservative. Partly because to say otherwise is embarassing for governments and all the special interests, and partly because if the politics stay as they are now, there is no chance of nuclear being implemented at a lower cost.

Regarding CCS, I do think it is a daft idea. Technically, I don’t believe there is anyway in the world we can sequester about 3 times the mass and 4 times the volume of carbon we mine and burn in our power stations. Secondly, the risks are far higher than from nuclear. Thirdly, even ACIL-Tasman’s very pro-coal report says the capital cost of CCS is around that of nuclear. On top of that you have much higher O&M costs. I believe CCS is mainly on the table in Australia to give us time to back out of coal and to keep the unions happy for as long as possible.

Regarding comparitive costs of energy technologies, this reference explains what is involved in getting an apples to apples comparison:

Click to access EPRI_report.pdf

For up to date cost projections of various technologies and clear short description of what is involved in getting an apples to apples comparison of costs:
http://my.epri.com/portal/server.pt?Product_id=000000000001019539

This is even better but more detailed:
MIT (2009). The future of nuclear power.
http://web.mit.edu/nuclearpower/

And the equivalent for coal:
MIT (2007). The future of Coal.
http://web.mit.edu/coal/

This is EPRI’s recent analysis, but based on 2008 costs, of what USA could achieve to reduce GHG emissions from electricity generation (and plug in electric vehicles):
EPRI (2009a), The power to reduce CO2 emissions: The full portfolio – 2009.
http://my.epri.com/portal/server.pt?Product_id=000000000001020389

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Peter Lang, on January 23rd, 2010 at 9.39 — I opine that sequestering carbon dioxide in formations containing ultramafic componenets will be quite safe; the minerals weather to carbonates and under the proper conditions fast enough.

In Papua New Guinea alone there is more than enough peridotite to sequester all the excess CO2 already emitted and then to continue to do so for longer than fossil fuels can possibly last. [That will hardly get one started and that is but one near-surficial ultramafic formation.]

Costs? Well once one has the (nearly) pure CO2 transported to the sequestration site, this is similar to other drilling operations. Around US$10 per tonne of CO2 ought to do it for operations on land. The only local effects will be a certain swelling up of the land, eventually largely offset by isotacy.

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David B Benson,

I sent my last comment before I considered it properly. My feeling about CCS is that we will have a number of Demonstration plants around the world for a decade or two and we will sequester some CO2. However, I expect the rate fo development of the technology will be siimilar to any other technology. It will take decades and in some two decades from now it will be a similar contributor to electrcity generation as solar thermal, geothermal, and wind power – i.e. down in the noise as far as making any significant contribution but making heaps of fuss and always “just around the corner”.

By the way want ti the effectivity porosity, hydraulic conductivity, and fracture surface area of the peridoties. What percentage of the land surface is covered by peridotites, or are you thinking of drilling into the Earth’s mantle?

Also, the major risk of CCS is the piping of the CO2.

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Peter Lang, on January 23rd, 2010 at 10.24 — The big problem, of course, is separating the CO2 from the rest of the exhaust gases. It is possible that oxy-fuel schemes may prove economic, I dunno.

But the geology is straightforward in those locations with near-surficial ultramafic rock. Other locations near you include New Caledonia and two sites in northern West Australia. The total percentage of land with near-surficial ultramafic rock is quite small, but vastly more than ever required. Here is the starter paper, after two popularizations about it:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/4292181.html
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/21629/?a=f
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/45/17295

As for piping CO2, it is currently being done in a few locations, one for a quite considerable distance. There are no problems at all; after all CO2 isn’t reactive unlike natgas in pipelines.

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You say CO2 is unreactive. That is not the problem. The problem is that it twice the density of air at atmospheric pressure. When a pipe ruptures, as they do, CO2 expands and flows as a heavy than air fluid. It fflows down low lying areas (valleys) displaces the air and suffocates all animal life. People think nuclear is dangerous, but they haven’t started to consider the dangers of piping CO2 from power stations to sequestration sites. There is not a chance in hades of CCS getting much beyond the RD&D stage, for many reasons, in my humble opionion. Some of the reasons are: safety, cost, energy consumed, volume to be sequestered. Regarding my previous questions and your responses, N/A ratio is zero. (numbers/adjectives). Adjectives are not an answer to my questions.

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Peter Lang, on January 23rd, 2010 at 12.22 — Well, for many years CO2 has been piped from southwestern Colorado (from a natural source) to West Texas for injection into oil wells. The Norwegians have an even more ambitious project going. So far, at least, your concerns do not appear to be justified.

There is one demonstration project going injecting CO2 into deep saline formations; the geochemistry is not as favorable as ultramafic rock, but the formation is adjacent to the coal burner under test. Another company at least states that they are going to inject CO2 (from a coal burner) into undersea basalt off the east coast of the USA. The location is not the same, but here is the idea:
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/29/9920.full.pdf+html

Regarding your previous questions, the article in PNAS provides all the numbers that I have.

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David B Benson,

I am across what you’ve posted here and in the previous posts. Pipes operate notrmally most of the time and occasional rupture, with or without huma assistance. You are totally missiing the point on this and on the other questions I asked.

There are thousands of bright ideas being promoted all the time. Almost all will never become commercial. And those that do eventually become commercial will take decades to get there. There i no point in discussing all these ‘possibilities’ you refer me to if you have no realistically derived costs for them – and that doesn’t mean costs derived by the researchers who are promoting their idea!

As I said: “I would say the idea that sequestering CO2 in ultramific rocks can have a mjor impact on CO2 emissions is even less feasible than algae farms”

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Peter Lang: 23rd Jan 9.35

Peter,

Thanks for your response and links. I’m relieved that you agree with my comments pertaining to relative nuclear and coal fuel costs.

I have one or two comments arising from MIT (2009) Future of Nuclear Power document.
a) They base their costings on a 40 year nuclear plant life which seems to be ultra conservative.
b) They go out of their way to recommend once through fuel cycles and advise against closed cycles on grounds of cost and safety. Admittedly, they qualify this by referring to the “next few decades” but this seems quite a long time in the current context.

Point b) seems to be very bad news for advocates of 4th Generation Nuclear. Have any of them addressed or attacked this recommendation of the MIT study which, otherwise, is relatively pro nuclear?

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Douglas Wise,

I intend to have a closer look at the relative cost of capital, fixed O&M, variable O&M, fuel, risk premiums in finance costs and the other paramaters for coal and nuclear.

I hope others who know more than I do about Gen IV will answer your question about when we can expect it to be commercially viable and the likely costs.

The 40 year life is conservative but it is the figure that has been used for decades in the major analyses, so I can see that for MIT to change it would create a discussion and argument that would divert attention from the main message. But I agree, it would be good if MIT could provide the LCOE for both 40-year and 60-year life expectancy.

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A recent poll in the USA found that support for wind dwindles when costs are considered :

Press release from :

Click to access ng_pressrelease.pdf

full report at :

Click to access ng_poll.pdf

Story at :

http://www.windaction.org/news/25245

Briefly from the press release :

“Results to these questions show that respondents are price sensitive; the higher
the increase in their bill, the less likely they are to support the Cape Wind project. For
example, while 42 percent of respondents are less likely to support the Cape Wind
project if their bill increased by $50 per year, this percentage increases to 67 percent at
the $100 increase per year threshold and to 78 percent at the $150 increase per year
threshold.

Finally, in terms of wind power, electric rates and support for political
candidates, respondents report they are more likely to vote for a candidate who
endorses policies that cut their electric bill (43% much more likely) in comparison to
candidates who support wind power projects (26% much more likely).”

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Peter Lang, on January 23rd, 2010 at 13.29 — I am at a loss: what does “I am across what you’ve posted here and in the previous posts” mean?

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David B Benson, I don’t want to get diverted into a discusion about geosequestration in ultra-maffic rocks (or any type of rocks). I think I have far more understanding of the geotechnical issues involved than you would appreciate, but it is, in my opinion, another one of these, what I would call, pie-in-the-sky ideas (like piping hydrogen from the Sun). They attract research grants, as solar power has for 55 years and geothermal HDR has for 40 years (HFR in Australia), and algae farms are and all these are a diversion from addressing the rational solution. They are time and effort wasters. They are a distraction. They are diverting our research resources and diverting public and political focus from applying the real solutions.

So I would like to focus our attention on the options for electricity generation that are known viable solutions to our problems, and then focus on what we can do to facilitate their implementation, facilitate public understanding, and help to find a way to solve the genuine issues – COST !!!!

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Finrod, on January 9th, 2010 at 8.01 you said:

Most cost blowouts in the west seem to be due to a combination of unnecessary regulatory burdens, vexatious law suites and political interference. These are factors which must be managed from the start when we go into the nuclear builds.

I agree and add:

I notice the MIT 2009 update of its 2003 report “The future of nuclear power” (Table 1) http://web.mit.edu/nuclearpower/pdf/nuclearpower-update2009.pdf calculates the Levelised Cost of Electricity (LCOE) from nuclear is 8.4 c/kWh for their base case and 6.6 c/kWh if the cost of capital for nuclear was the same as the cost of capital for coal and gas generators. The difference in the cost of capital is the risk premium that investors demand for nuclear compared with coal and gas. The investors demand this premium because they assess that public attitudes to coal and gas are less likely to mean they lose their investment than is the case for an investment in nuclear. These figures imply that the risk premium the US investors are putting on nuclear is 27%. That is the amount by which we could reduce the cost of nuclear power if the public perception would change such that the risk of adverse government policies sometime in the future is the same for nuclear as for coal and gas.

I notice that the Australian government recently stated it would accept all the risk for leakage of CO2 in Carbon Capture and Storage. Is this the sort of unequal treatment we need if we want to move to cleaner and safer electricity generation? Shouldn’t the government also announce it will carry the public risks of nuclear power to at least and equivalent extent as is being offered for Carbon Capture and Storage?

Any ideas on this?

How can we get this discussion going in the media?

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Peter Lang, on January 24th, 2010 at 12.06 — You were the one to bring up CCS and without any justification for your position. The subsequent exchanges on this rather imperfect medium (1) did not challenge my cost estimate nor its potential feasibility and (2) quickly diverted to fears about CO2 pipeline leaks, again without any rational risk analysis. So I greatly fear you do not appear, in these few writings, as either as knowledgeable nor using rational argumentation.

Your opinion is of course your own, but R&D work on CCS is going forward in at least the US and in Germany; it seems that some think it may prove to be cost-effective as well as safe. Of course, it isn’t available for deployment now (and indeed may never be). However, various interests want it attempted, so as it is not obviously worse than other means of offsetting or reducing CO2 emissions, I am sure that R&D will continue.

If successful, as IPCC AR4 MG3 report points out, then using wood burners (or algae burners) as opposed to fossil fuel burners would provide carbon-negative energy, a good thing. For, as well you know, just direct dollar cost is not the only issue.

Peace,
David

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David B Benson,

Fair points that I brought up CCS. I am sorry I did so. I don’t remember the context, but emphaise I think this is not where we should be placing our effort.

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Peter Lang, on January 24th, 2010 at 13.05 — If by “our” you mean Australians, then while it is far from my place to agree, I do so anyway.

As an outsider who visited some parts of NSW and Queensland in the previous century, I strongly encourage your efforts to encourage NPPs as part of your solution. If in 15-20 years CCS is found feasible, then it’ll work for the CCGTs in your proposal (assuming that advanced nuclear hasn’t undercut their LCOE and so those are in fact never built).

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David B Benson,

I agree but put a caveat on this statement:

If in 15-20 years CCS is found feasible

The caveat is: as long as it isnt found feasbile by filling the Great Artesian Basin with CO2, thereby sequestering a few years of CO2 from our power stations and rendering the Great Artesian Basin useless as a source of water for ever.

And don’t believe the hype when the politicians say neve never never. The Great Artesian Basin is by far the best place to sequester CO2. Just watch and listen to the pressures, politics and manouvering that will be applied over time to sequester CO2 in this the easiest of all aquifers to pump CO2 into.

And don’t worry, I have no financial interest in the Great Artesian Basin nor do I live on it. But I do appreciate its historic value and it future value as a water source for much of inland Queensland, NSW and South Australia.

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Douglas Wise, on January 10th, 2010 at 1.14 you said

You have also been suggesting that build costs for nuclear are excessively high in part due to a culture in the West of excessive/redundant safety. ….. In your opinion, how much could be saved by opting for extremely safe rather than ridiculously safe?

The 2009 update of the 2003 MIT report “The future of nuclear power” shows that the risk premium demanded by investors in nuclear power raises the cost of electricity by 27% (8.4 c/kWh versus 6.6 c/kWh; 6.6 c/kWh would be the price if the cost of capital was the same for nucear and coal power stations). http://web.mit.edu/nuclearpower/pdf/nuclearpower-update2009.pdf , Table 1.

(I see why no one responded to this point in my previous post; I made a mistake and quoted the 2003 instead of the 2009 c/kWh figures, but gave the the 2009 % increase of 27%. But no one wanted to embarrass me.  )

So, this suggests we can cut the cost of electrcity by around 27% once the investors become convinced that the investment is just as safe or safer than coal and gas from an investment perspective. That requires bipartisan support by the main political parties, both federal and state and removal of all the impediments that penalise nuclear power relative to coal, gas and renewables.

Putting my recent previous posts together, I can see the potential to cut the cost of nuclear as follows (in constant, 2010 A$):

1. $4100/kW – Start cost, based on the contract awarded for 5400 MW of FOAK AP1000 in UAE

2. 27% reduction in risk premium demanded by investors ($2,993/kW)

3. 20% reduction for a contract awarded in about 2015 for the first AP1000’s to be constructed in Australia, for commissioning in 2020 ($2,394/kW)

4. 18% reduction in capital cost over the next 4 years (as per ACIL Tasman capital cost reduction for learning in Australia), commissioning 2024 ($1,963/kW)

5. 30% reduction from 2020 to 2030 (extending the learning curve from 4 years to 10 years), commissioning 2030 ($1,676/kW)

I realise this is optimistic. However, I am hoping to generate discussion that will help to focus our efforst on where the effort is required – i.e. in reducing the risk premium for investors.

With nuclear some 10 to 100 times safer than coal generation, our political leaders should be able to accomplish this for the benefit of all.

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Peter Lang: Jan 24th 20.10

Be careful. If you carry on, we’ll get electricity too cheap to meter! To be more serious, the 27% figure is very interesting. I agree, too, that FOAK costs will always be higher than bedded down costs provided that supply constraints can be avoided (laws of supply and demand). I would also accept that factory built modular plants ought to bring down costs over one off versions.

For my own amusement, I calculated electricity costs, using your earlier formula, keeping variable costs constant but varying build costs according to your post above. I also assumed that fixed costs would remain at 13.1% of build costs which is presumably spurious:

Build cost $ 5207/KW . Electricity cost $101.4/MWh
$ 4100 $ 82.1
$ 2993 $ 62.6
$ 2394 $ 52.1
$ 1963 $ 44.5
$ 1676 $ 39.4

Obviously, we’ll get much more realistic figures after you have finished your examination of the detailed breakdowns you proposed in post 43739 (Jan 23rd).

I thought that you may be somewhat OTT with respect to CCS. You are happy to use the MIT nuclear study in support of your position. However, the equivalent MIT coal study was not nearly as dismissive of CCS as you are and claimed that CCS coal would be competitive with non CCS coal at a CO2 price of $30/tonne. Given the forseeable lives of existing coal plants and the possibility of retrofitting, might there not be circumstances where it would be cheaper to allow the existing plants to survive but switch to CCS coal than to close them prematurely? I suppose it might depend upon whether governments felt obliged to compensate the coal industry in the event of enforcing a total shutdown. Some might find it expedient to allow clean CCS coal plants to continue for a finite time while, themselves, subsidising the extra CCS costs in lieu of compensation for immediate enforced closures.

None of the above indicates that I am arguing against going full bore for nuclear. Rather, I am thinking about the most economically possible interim arrangements. You want a level playing field for emissions-free electricity. Let CCS coal, CCS gas, renewables and nuclear compete on equal terms. We both think nuclear should easily come out on top in the long run. In the short term, I’m only sure that renewables are a dead end.

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Douglas Wise,

I agree with you warning:

Be careful. If you carry on, we’ll get electricity too cheap to meter!

I am just trying to promote a discussion here on what I think we need to work on, which is: How can we implement clean electricity in Australia at least cost while also ensuring it is safer than what we have now and more environmentally benighn than what we have now.

I am just trying to get the discussion going. There are people who contribute to this web site that know far more about the costs, and the excessive regulatory and buraucratic burden on nuclear power costs, than I do. I urge contributors to engage on a discussion of costs and what can be done.

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Douglas Wise,

On CCS, yes I do expect there will be some CCS. There will be enormous amounts of government funding spent on subsidising CCS and a whole raft of “renewable-fuel” technologies. So yes there will be some CCS.

As a geotechnical engineer who has seen a lot of rock from underground, done a lot of hydraulic testing of rock at considerable depth, and pushed a lot of water and tracers over long distances and in many different types of rock, I expect that the researchers pushing CCS are working from computer models and have very little real world experience. I simply do not believe it will be technically feasible for the developed countries to sequester a significant proportion of their CO2 emissions, let alone China, India or Africa as it develops. To me CC will be another huge drain on our resources that could be put to better use. I think an impartial cost/benefit analysis would show this. My bias is that MIT leans to be pro-coal and slightly anti-nuclear. I believe they, EPRI, CSIRO and others are overly optimistic on CCS.

By the way, ACIL-Tasman gives the capital cost and electricity cost for both nuclear and coal with CCS. I’ll list them below separated by “;” so you can copy them into Excel and pars them into columns.

;;2010;2020;2029
Nuclear;Capital;5,207;4,959;4,263
Nuclear (if wanted);Capital;4,100;2,394;1,676
USC CCS BLACK (AC);Capital;3,922;3,358;3,103
Nuclear;LCOE;101;98;87
Nuclear (if wanted);LCOE;82;63;39
USC CCS BLACK (AC);LCOE;83;72;67

Legend:
Capital = Capital Cost
LCOE = levelised Cost of Electricity
Nuclear (if wanted) = estimated costs if the unequal imposts on nuclear removed. The estimated electricity costs are from Douglas’s calculation reported in comment above (25 Jan at 01:32 am).

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I wondered what had happened to the proposal to store CO2 in depleted gas wells in the Cooper Basin. A year ago the oil company Santos publicised it on its website, now it seems they are more into sponsoring bicycle races. The archived proposal is here

Click to access Santos_Moomba_Carbon_Storage.pdf

It seems preposterous to me to build 1000km pipelines from east coast coal stations yet I think this year might see something even more bizarre. I strongly suspect that a new gas fired power station will figure in the Olympic Dam expansion. That is, burn expensive and carbon emitting fossil fuels to assist part of the nuclear industry. If that prediction proves right it’s extraordinary the lengths politicians will go to to avoid nuclear power on home soil.

David B there is an open cut mine near home which aimed to extract platinum group elements from serpentine type or ultramafic rocks. Cracks in the rocks have thin veins of carbonate but I see no way that they could capture millions of tonnes of CO2 every year.

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As a geotechnical engineer who has seen a lot of rock from underground, done a lot of hydraulic testing of rock at considerable depth, and pushed a lot of water and tracers over long distances and in many different types of rock

This is why I’d be very interested in your opinion of HDR (i.e. artificial, operating at depths of several km) geothermal systems, and in particular their likely longevity.

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John Newlands, on January 25th, 2010 at 11.01 — There is a big difference between serpentine and ultramafic rock; the latter weathers into the former by a slightly exothermic reaction with CO2. (Maybe you knew that, but other readers here might not have.)

Anyway, even basalt (some types), not even ultramafic, is considered good enough to consume millions of tonnes of CO2 per year via in situ weatherization. The links are above and in geologist’s usual reckonings, the amounts of CO2 are hardly worth mentioning; I have yet to see a serious objection

once there is a (nearly) pure stream of CO2.

That last is the hard part, IMO.

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It is not necessary for CCS to be practical, or even implemented beyond a few test sites. The role of CCS is to provide the illusion that something can and is being done to address the CO2 generated by burning fossil-fuels. It is greenwash, like wind is greenwash, and it will never amount to anything else, because if CCS were ever mandated by regulation, it would drive the price of using these fuels right through the roof, and everyone knows it.

It’s a show, nothing more, nothing less and that’s all it ever will be.

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DV82XL, on January 25th, 2010 at 11.43 — Yes, the issue in setting and enforcing a price on CO2 emissions. At a high enough price burning coal stops being economic; utilities will move to other generation methods. The goal is to have everybody require CO2 emissiions costs that are that high.

That said, once that high it is possible that CCS becomes economic. It is not obvious, but it is certainly not just greenwash.

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David, that’s the scientist in you talking, and as far as it goes, I’m sure you right, and can supply numbers to support it.

But I see things from a more Machiavellian perspective, and consequently I see only that the fossil-fuel industry will dangle CCS in front of us as the reason we can continue to burn carbon. At the same time they will be dragging their heels over implementation, by constantly assuring everyone that they are working as hard as they can, and holding up development projects as proof.

This sill assumes that CCS won’t suffer from other political pressure concerning its safety, (justified or not) something which it is very vulnerable to.

But it will never become cheaper than nuclear.

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DV82XL, on January 25th, 2010 at 12.03 — Well, use the political process to implement CO2 emissions costs; that’ll hurry the coal guys along!

As for the relative pricing of variouys generation methods, that changes over time. Worse, it is becoming increasingly clear to me that simple economic cost, as usually measured, is not the only factor to deciding which power production methods and facilities to license.

So once again, back to politics I fear.

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DV82XL, on January 25th, 2010 at 12.03 — I need to add that the 6th NPCC power plan for my region placed advanced nuclear as slightly more expensive than CCGTs and slightly less than coal burners, when a substantial CO2 emissions cost was factored in.

By far the least espensive was energy conservation measures.

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“Worse, it is becoming increasingly clear to me that simple economic cost, as usually measured, is not the only factor to deciding which power production methods and facilities to license.”

No kidding!

One of my biggest complaints with the current pronuclear movement is that it doesn’t pay enough attention to the politics, and when it does, it is in the most naïve way. I’m appalled at how often I get some riff on the idea that if we could just sit down with [insert leader] and explain it to him/her, they would surely support nuclear energy. Of course that’s an oversimplification, but unfortunately not by much.

The antinuclear side, on the other hand, are seasoned political operators, which is why they are still ahead in the battle. Yet despite the fact that they are beating us up on every corner of the street, I get very little positive feedback when I bring the subject up, and say we have to stop worrying about being technically correct, and start playing the game properly.

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DV82XL

Sadly, it has ever been thus. It’;s the easiest thing to assume that this or that industrial or energy system was chosen because it was the best at the time, but a careful look back shows that while questions such as efficiency and effectiveness were relevant they were often not decisive. Politics and culture have always played a part in what gets adopted, deferred and passed over.

That’s certainly true of nuclear power. Once or twice each year, when I raise the subject someone asks how people in countries that use nuclear power can tell it from coal fired power — as if you could put a Geiger counter up at the socket in the wall and find out. More common still is the idea that nuclear power plants can detonate in a huge mushroom cloud like Hiroshima or Nagasaki, and that a meltdown will melt the containment area and slip its way insidiously into the water table and contaminate our drinking water for 50,000 years and that we will see instances of deformed and mutant children skyrocket.

It also seems somehow as if because Chernobyl was a disaster that honouring them requires a never again clause. Building a nuclear power plant for some is the equivalent of spitting on the victims of Chernobyl or Hiroshima, in much the same way as condemning the holocaust and solidarising with its victims means opposing modern anti-semitism. For some, opposing nuclear power is that kind of masthead moral shibboleth rather than something to be analysed for contemporary relevance.

So it’s little wonder that those of us who favour a rational discussion are up against it. What? You want a radioactive Australia? Not bothered by nuclear weapons? You’re Ok with deformed babies? What the hell is wrong with you?

Throw in populist hatred of big business, ideas about naturalness and you have a pretty compelling bunch of reasons for anti-nuclear people to set aside their differences and work to block it. Even the aesthetics of the plant make them look like malignant growths on the landscape.

That’s why I really think we need as much as possible to get people focused on the numbers. Make the debate be about what works best. Point out that what works best is also what will make it possible to protect the environment from human encroachment and protect those forests and rivers sooner, and more widely than the ostensibly cleaner alternatives. Point out that LFTRs and IFRs can subtract from waste which we don’t otherwise quite know what to do with and that smaller amounts of visible and contained hazmat is preferable to larger widely dispersed quantities of hazmat which is the alternative.

There will always be some people who aren’t amenable to reason ( dropped into John Quiggin’s blog yesterday and you should have read some the wailing and gnashing of teeth on nuclear power when a couple of posters tried to talk numbers) , but if we can get the debate to be about measurable things rather than aesthetic and visceral things, our chances of securing good policy go way up.

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Ewen Laver

A large part of the resistance to prosecuting a political campaign, is that because most of us came to believe in nuclear power through reason, we tend as a group, to be rational people. So we look at the problem of convincing others of nuclear power’s superiority as rationalists. But really is kind of like the old saying that when all you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail. We have to bring in other tools to work this issue, and raw logic can only be one of them.

You say if we can get the debate to be about measurable things rather than aesthetic and visceral things, our chances of securing good policy go way up. Perhaps if we only needed to influence a small group of powerful people, but we live in much more political complex countries, and it is never that simple. Basically unless you can mobilize a large enough group of voters, or have pockets deep enough to buy the necessary politicians, all the economic arguments we might bring to the table will be next to useless.

The way you are suggesting would work great if we all had governments like Singapore, but Australia, Canada, and the U.S. are very different playing fields with very different groud rules. For us something as basic as flipping on the light switch is the end result of a series of political decisions that begin at the voting booth and make their way through the vast dark spaces of politics, bureaucracy, and commerce.

The fact is we need a more visceral approach to get the population behind us, because the only real threat we can raise is the threat of having the incumbent politicians voted out. Its is the only weapon that will counter money which is the other thing we are facing.

We have a war on two fronts. On one side are the Antinuclear forces that have various agendas that don’t allow for nuclear energy. They have a religion. Their religion tells them that only renewable energy is “good” and all other energy is “bad.” Never mind that their definitions of good and bad are only in their minds. They use fear to drive their cause into the body public, with little concern for the truth. Plausibility alone is the only ‘proof’ they require to construct a mythology of atomic horror, and to serve it up as absolute truth.

On the other side we have fossil-fuel industry that is using their right to employ money-amplified free speech to persuade the world that we cannot possibly be changing the world’s climate and that continued use of their products are mankind’s wisest course of action. They have hijacked wind and solar, and yes CCS, to create a green façade behind which they can continue their hegemony.

Against this a purely rational set of arguments falls flat.

We need high profile support from celebrities, we need grassroots organizations on the ground in the community, and we have to start fighting dirty, because these are the things they are doing to us. Yet I have actually heard from pronuclear supporters that believe that much could be accomplished with a letter writing campaign à la Amnesty International.

Nuclear power has survived, and its public stature has grown of late, almost in spite of itself. But as it does, it is again going to become a target, and if we are not prepared to fight they way our opponents are going to, we will be pushed back into the hinterlands for another thirty years.

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Great contributions from all.

DV82XL, Ewen Laver, as you say, gaining public acceptance is essential. It is an essential precursor to getting nuclear at a competitive price.

As Steve Kirsch said here https://bravenewclimate.com/2010/01/02/investment-we-arent-making/ :

If you want to get emissions reductions, you must make the alternatives for electric power generation cheaper than coal. It’s that simple. If you don’t do that, you lose.

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I am not quite as despondent about the public support for nuclear power. The politicians in Europe, and even the US, are starting to realise that the only way we will stabilise at 450 ppm in a few decades is by using more nuclear. They have had enough experts in their collective ears to hear the clarion call. They would not do this if the voters were dead set against it or if they believed it was inherently a bad idea.

Australia stands alone in the G20 by refusing to seriously consider nuclear. This may be the voters in Australia but I suspect it has more to do with protecting the valuable coal industry. Australia has many reasons for seeing CCS be successful. The challenge here is to persuade the government to take out an insurance policy in case CCS fails to deliver. It will probably take at least a decade to build the first nuclear plant once the announcement is made. Valuable time is being lost.

A parallel approach like we see in the UK and the US makes more sense. Hedge the bets between CCS and nuclear. The government is prepared to invest in EGS which is probably an even more problematic solution than CCS so why not nuclear planning?

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1. Establish an organisation like a modern version of the Snowy Mountains Authority, to implement nuclear power in Australia to provide electricity at a price less than coal generated electricity

2. Set up nuclear research facilities in at least one university in every mainland state

3. Major part of the research to be into the social engineering aspects

4. No CPRS

5. No Carbon Tax

6. Remove the ban on everything to do with nuclear energy, uranium mining and the nuclear fuel cycle

7. Remove all Mandatory Renewable Energy Targets – they are a total waste of money and have zero effect on emissions.

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The CPRS is exactly the wrong policy, for Australia, and for the world.

The CPRS will make no difference whatsoever to global temperatures.

It will raise the cost of electricity which is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing.

To help people out of poverty, throughout the world, they need electricity.

(see this chart of UN statistics charting life expectancy versus per capita electricity consumption. http://graphs.gapminder.org/world/#$majorMode=chart$is;shi=t;ly=2003;lb=f;il=t;fs=11;al=30;stl=t;st=t;nsl=t;se=t$wst;tts=C$ts;sp=6;ti=2005$zpv;v=0$inc_x;mmid=XCOORDS;iid=pyj6tScZqmEcKxvG4lnIreQ;by=ind$inc_y;mmid=YCOORDS;iid=phAwcNAVuyj2tPLxKvvnNPA;by=ind$inc_s;uniValue=8.21;iid=phAwcNAVuyj0XOoBL%5Fn5tAQ;by=ind$inc_c;uniValue=255;gid=CATID0;by=grp$map_x;scale=log;dataMin=5.71;dataMax=28213$map_y;scale=lin;dataMin=12;dataMax=83$map_s;sma=49;smi=2.65$cd;bd=0$inds=
Click on ‘Play’ to see how the chart changes over time. Then change the left axis to see the comparison of electricity consumption with any of the other UN statistics such as health, education, fertility rate, poverty, etc).

To get electricity to the poorest people as fast as possible we need to help the world to lower, not raise, the cost of electricity.

CPRS and ETS are designed to raise the cost of electricity.

Instead, we should be doing all we can to lower the cost of clean alternatives to fossil fuel generated electricity.

The only economically viable clean electricity generation technology is nuclear energy.

We should do all we can to lower the cost of nuclear energy in the developed nations – including Australia. Then it can be applied in the developing nations.

Nuclear is some 10 to 100 times safer than coal generated electricity and far more environmentally benign. https://bravenewclimate.com/2009/08/13/wind-and-carbon-emissions-peter-lang-responds/
So, why aren’t our political leaders explaining this to the population? Don’t they know the facts?

There are other reasons apart from lifting people out of poverty and giving them a better life. Low-cost, clean electricity will reduce emissions more quickly than high cost electricity, because electricity will more rapidly displace gas for heating and oil for land transport. The choice is a slow transition to clean electricity or a much more rapid transition to clean electricity with the added benefit of a faster transition to a clean energy for heating and land transport (clean electricity). Oil fueled land transport will be displaced over decades by a combination of electric vehicles and vehicles running on synthetic fuels produced using clean electricity.

Summary:

Some policy implications of the paper: “Emission Cuts Realities – Electricity Generation” (Lang, 2010)

1. Mandating renewable energy is bad policy

2. If we are serious about cutting GHG emissions, we’d better get serious about implementing nuclear energy as soon as possible

3. If we want to implement nuclear power we’ll need to focus on how to do so at least cost, not with the sorts of high cost regimes imposed in USA and EU

4. We should not raise the cost of electricity. We must do all we can to bring clean electricity to our industries and residents at a cost no higher than the least cost option

5. Therefore, ETS/CPRS is exactly the wrong policy.

References:

Lang,P. 2010. Emission Cuts Realities – Electricity Generation.

Emission cuts realities for electricity generation – costs and CO2 emissions

please click on the pdf version if reading the paper in detail. The pdf version includes the footnotes, references and appendices.

Lang, P. 2009. Wind and Carbon Emissions – Peter Lang responds

Wind and carbon emissions – Peter Lang responds

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Peter Lang: 27th Jan. 20.10

Peter, I am worried that your strongly worded opinions on the political and economic policies that would best lead to a carbon free energy future may detract from the well researched facts and conclusions that you elaborated in your post at the top of this thread.

I am sure that the strong wording is primarily to provoke discussion and, as a layman, I am happy to discuss. So here goes:
1) In your summary, I agree entirely with your points 1-3, but not with the last two.
2) At present, you have calculated that nuclear electricity is far and away the cheapest form of carbon free electricity. Notwithstanding, for many (and often unnecessary) reasons, it still can’t currently compete with electricity fom coal. Over the course of a few decades (possibly sooner), one can reasonably expect that it will be competitive with coal from newly built plants, but probably not with coal when the coal plants still have life in them but have had their capital costs written off. There are grounds even to suppose that nuclear baseload electricity may ,eventually, be significantly cheaper than coal electricity. Having accepted all that, I can’t see why nuclear roll out wouldn’t be quicker with the aid of a push from, say, a carbon tax.
3) Your prescription appears to do nothing to encourage energy efficiency. You might argue that energy efficiency wouldn’t be nearly so important if all energy were carbon free. However, in the real world, it won’t be for decades.
4) You suggest that a carbon tax (or exchange trading) will slow transition to electrical transport and heating. I can’t see why this should be so, but I am possibly being thick. I am assuming that petroleum products would be subject to a carbon tax in the same way as coal and gas. On what assumptions was your suggestion made? (In fact, for domestic heating, heat pumps are already competitive with oil and gas boilers.)
5) On another thread, you reasonably point out the difficulties of some nations and not others taxing carbon. I acknowledge the problem but have mentioned before that it might be soluble by use of trade embargoes or tariffs. However, there are equally going to be problems if some nations take your view and commit to nuclear while others don’t. Because of high up front costs, nations not adopting the technology will have short term competitive advantage. Longer term, this will undoubtedly reverse but, by then, it could be too late for all of us. How would you propose solving this dilemma?
6) You suggest that higher cost energy will delay the development of poorer nations which, in turn, will result in their populations continuing to breed unsustainably. I really don’t think that this need be the case with, for example, a tax and dividend scheme. What have you got against it?

It seems we both want plentiful, clean and affordable energy and both agree that nuclear fission represents the only plausible hope of achieving the aim. We differ as to how the objective is to be achieved in the most efficient and expeditious manner.

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[…] Peter Lang said: So now we have a competitive bid for FOAK build of four 1350 MW power stations using AP1400 reactors. The comparison is UAE = A$4115 and Australia (projected) A$5207. Both are FOAK. The the capital cost of the first NPP in Australia should be less than A$4115 for the same design as being built in UAE.by Korean contractors if all other factors are equal. The reasons it should be lower cost in Australia than in UAE are: […]

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“CPRS and ETS …” — Sorry, what do these mean?

a) Carbon pollution reduction scheme;
b) emissions trading scheme

a) = the legal title given to Australia’s ETS knocked back in the senate in December 2009

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Douglas Wise,

Thank you for your reply. I agree with your first comment. I thought about whether or not to post it for the very reason you make. But I decided to anyway. And yes, I wanted to try to get some discussion going on the policy implications of the “Emission Cuts Realities …” paper, given that our Parliament is scheduled to debate Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme Bill next week.

1) In your summary, I agree entirely with your points 1-3, but not with the last two.

Great. That’s 60%, so I got a I pass (or is that a Credit?)

2) At present, you have calculated that nuclear electricity is far and away the cheapest form of carbon free electricity. Notwithstanding, for many (and often unnecessary) reasons, it still can’t currently compete with electricity fom coal. Over the course of a few decades (possibly sooner), one can reasonably expect that it will be competitive with coal from newly built plants, but probably not with coal when the coal plants still have life in them but have had their capital costs written off. There are grounds even to suppose that nuclear baseload electricity may ,eventually, be significantly cheaper than coal electricity. Having accepted all that, I can’t see why nuclear roll out wouldn’t be quicker with the aid of a push from, say, a carbon tax.

You say nuclear “cannot currently compete with coal”. I disagree. It cannot compete when it is banned and when there are so many unequal constraints and regulations on it but not on its competitors. I say we can build nuclear commencing in 2015 for commissioning in 2020 at a proice competitive with new coal. But we need to remove the unequal imposts. I would also impose phased in emissions regulation on all generators. And I would have a “Cash for Clunkers” policy as mentioned in an earlier post on BNC. I’ll put my ideas on all this in a separate post.

3) Your prescription appears to do nothing to encourage energy efficiency. You might argue that energy efficiency wouldn’t be nearly so important if all energy were carbon free. However, in the real world, it won’t be for decades.

I agree. I didn’t cover that. Although a price on carbon will have an effect on efficiency, there are so many other problems the ETS will introduce that I think the efficency benefit will be lost in the noise, while sending Australian industires off shore, making us poorer, and having no net envireonmental benefit for the planet. If all countries raise the cost of electricity, humanity will be worse off not better off (for the reasons I outlined https://bravenewclimate.com/2010/01/09/emission-cuts-realities/#comment-44149 ). And if only Australia and a few other countries implement an ETS, then we lose out for no net environmental gain.

4) You suggest that a carbon tax (or exchange trading) will slow transition to electrical transport and heating. I can’t see why this should be so, …. I am assuming that petroleum products would be subject to a carbon tax in the same way as coal and gas.

My underlying assumption is that the cost of gas for heating, oil for transport and electricity will all increase. So there will be no greater incentive than now to move from oil and gas to electricity. If electricity is kept low cost it will displace oil and gas faster. A price on carbon will raise the cost of electricity faster than oil and gas (I am guessing; I haven’t checked this).

5) On another thread, you reasonably point out the difficulties of some nations and not others taxing carbon. I acknowledge the problem but have mentioned before that it might be soluble by use of trade embargoes or tariffs

Trade embargoes and tarrifs lead to trade wars. Everyone loses. It leads to conflict and, in the past, to world wars. That is a completely wrong approach. We need to move to free trade as quickly as possible for the benefit of all humanity. If the EU wants to continue to resist free trade (as it has been doing for the 40 odd years the GATT negotiations have been going on – remember the French farmers and their tractors blocking the roads if they don’t get their way about every 5 or so), the rest of the world shoud embargo the EU, IMHO :)

5) cont. However, there are equally going to be problems if some nations take your view and commit to nuclear while others don’t. Because of high up front costs, nations not adopting the technology will have short term competitive advantage. Longer term, this will undoubtedly reverse but, by then, it could be too late for all of us. How would you propose solving this dilemma?

This problem doesn’t exist if we implement nuclear at a price competitive with coal from the start. I accept that new nuclear cannot compete with old coal. But is can compete with new coal if we remove all the impediments. And we are going to phase out the old coal by regulating emissions of all generators. And we’ll buy some back. And the public will have to pay for the additional costs of FAOK for the first 5 or so power stations.

6) You suggest that higher cost energy will delay the development of poorer nations which, in turn, will result in their populations continuing to breed unsustainably. I really don’t think that this need be the case with, for example, a tax and dividend scheme. What have you got against it?

I haven’t looked at it closely and don’t really know anything about it. I didn’t look at it closely because it isn’t one of the options being discussed for Australia. There has been some limited discussion of a consumption based ETS as opposed to the production based ETS. But it is totally impractical to implement. We’d need a finance and accounting system just as sophisticated as our money system. I can’t contribute anything to the discussion of the tax and dividend scheme. However, I would add that if government is involved, I’ll take a lot of convincing :)

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Peter Lang: Jan 28th 16.48

I suppose our different slants on appropriate policy depend, in part, on the length of the transition period to clean energy that we have to work with. I strongly suspect that your route is the longer one and that it might get us to our destination too late to do any good. I am simply not knowledgeable enough to calculate how much time we really have but I am frustrated that matters are moving more slowly than I would wish.

I do agree that all developed nations need to embrace nuclear power as a priority and facilitate developing nations to do similarly. If one had to pick one policy, this would do more good than any other. However, in my view, it may still be insufficient, in itself, without some sort of regulatory push. I think it is possible to detect some evidence of political encouragement for nuclear by an increasing number of nations. Notwithstanding, the real enthusiasm of many seems currently to be directed towards the deployment of wind power, encouraged by extremely damaging subsidies. You have done far more than most to demonstrate that this approach is foolhardy. The sooner such subsidies are removed the better since they are guaranteed for the lifetimes of those windfarms already built and their removal would stop further construction of wind farms in its tracks and thus make more money available for functioning alternatives.

You say that nuclear could, in theory, compete now but immediately go on to say “nuclear cannot compete……when there are so many unequal constraints and regulations on it but not on its competitors.” But ,currently, there are and it will take longer than either of us would wish to level things off (I’ve avoided saying up or down in view of your discussion with Ewen Laver).

You have somewhat puzzled me by your call for “phased emissions regulation on all generators”. Are you thinking of non-CO2 emissions or all? Would the regulations apply to vehicle users and those burning oil or gas for domestic heating or just to electricity generators? Would the emissions be capped or taxed in your proposed regulations?

You guess that “a price on carbon will raise the cost of electricity faster than oil and gas”. I’m not sure this is necessarily the case. I have read, for example, that an electric vehicle emits less CO2 than an equivalent petrol one even when one factors in the coal power station’s emissions created by making the electricity to power the said car. I have already mentioned that electrical heat pumps produce less CO2 per unit of heat than oil or gas boilers, again having factored in the coal power plant’s emission contribution. In any event, regardless of carbon taxes, one might expect that oil and gas prices would increase faster in the future than electricity prices for purely supply and demand reasons. To sum up, I remain unconvinced that you have made the case that a price on carbnon would delay the transition to more efficient transport or domestic heating.

Although you acknowledge that your proposals would do little to encourage efficiency, you somewhat cynically go on to suggest that any ETS scheme would be so inefficient and bureaucatic as to swallow up most of the efficiency gains anyway. I can assure you that my opinion of bureaucrats almost certainly matches your own. It is why , as a gut instinct, I find tax and dividend much more appealing – in its simplest form, the entire tax raised would be distributed equally to each adult member of the population of the government raising the tax. The average citizen would thus be no worse off for paying the tax but each would be personally incentivised to use energy more efficiently.

You are a passionate believer in free trade. I used to be. You suggest trade embargoes/tariffs are bad and can lead to conflict. Let’s take this a bit further. The cost of vehicle fuel in the UK is much higher than in, for example, the States. There is also a climate change levy paid on all fossil fuel derived energy. There are consequences of this disparity. UK manufacturers are placed at a competitive disadvantage because of higher costs. UK drivers drive smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles, reducing CO2 emissions in consequence. Meanwhile, many UK manufacturers move production to China or India, dropping UK emissions further but increasing Asian emissions. In consequence, there will be rising UK unemployment, a shrinking tax base but a citizenry that expects its government to provide generous welfare provisions. This has all the necessary ingredients for the end of democracy and some might legitimately suggest that it was the consequence of the growth of insufficiently regulated multinational companies and a blind faith in the virtues of free trade. I am not saying that this is my own view because I remain ambivalent. One could argue that, as UK citizens get poorer , even more people in developing countries are getting richer and that this is, overall, a good thing – not for me or my genes though.

Let’s now put that issue to one side and consider a carbon tax and dividend programme that, say, was adopted by Europe, the Americas and Oceania but not by China or India. We leave free trade in place but the developing nations reduce emissions much more slowly than the rest of the world deems necessary, thereby enriching themselves with their exports and impoverishing everyone else until they can no longer continue to import but have few, if any, viable surviving industries. You accept that a carbon tax, unlevelly applied, would disadvantage those applying it but can’t accept the balancing need for trade tariffs/embargoes because of your adherence to free trade. I think, in fact, that the Chinese and Indians are far too intelligent not to appreciate the threats to themselves of climate change and would quickly become carbon taxers themselves or willingly comply with tariffs until such time as it took them to transition to carbon free energy. At present, they are sensibly trying to get ahead of the game before the rules change.

I support a tax on carbon (preferably with a returned dividend) because I think it will encourage efficiency and speed the transition from carbon-based energy. Actually, I think it would also drive home the compelling argument for the need for nuclear power more quickly. Your route would be fine if we had until 2100 to sort matters out. I don’t think we have this time. I accept your misgivings over an unequally applied carbon tax but don’t think they need be insurmountable.

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Hi Douglas Wise,

My apolgies for not replying today. I will tomorrow. We are poles apart on our position on globalisation, trade barriers and protectionism and role of governemtns. In short, I’d say, the reason GB and Europe are sinking economically is too much socialism. If you want socialism, and want to protect your self from competition, those policies will drive these nations into the poor house. You can’t have socialism and be wealthy. I’d also point out that globalisations, freeing up trade (there is a long way to go with this yet) and market economies are bring health, eduation and closing the gap between rich and poor. If you don’t agree, spend some time with the GapMinder charts. And even look at Hans Rosling’s demonstrations on the GapMinder web site.

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Great comments everyone. Since 2005, I’ve been making speeches on why Australia should go nuclear. I go so far as to suggest to groups that they invite me to put the case. Most reply positively. As a result I’ve reached about 2000 people including the Royal Geographical Society SA [usual meeting 30 members my meeting 130-standing room onl], Engineers Australia [SA], the Commonwealth Club, Adelaide Rotary [standing ovation from 120 present] AdelaideRoyal United Services Institute and several other Rotary, Probus, Apex clubs etc. I’ve even got into a couple of schools to speak to the ones we really do have to convince. There is a lot of support for a nuclear Australia out there. Take it from me. Have written countless letter to editors [quite a few have been printed but by no means enough], politicians and others. Had one printed today in which I bagged the misguided SA government because of its insistence in building more and more part time power wind farms. We just have to get out to the people and stop just discussing the issue amongst ourselves. Have YOU had a go yet?

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Neil Howes, on 5 May 2010 at 9.00 Said:

Santos chief’s gassy vision Part 2 – is gas almost as good as nuclear?

[I] am working on a scenario of all NEM coal-fired power being replaced by 16GW av wind, 6GW av CSP(12GW peak capacity, with 24h storage), 1.5GWav hydro and approx 1.5GW av OCGT(present 4GW capacity) , using your figures for present NEM demand. I am using the data from the 18 wind farms in operation at present(1600MW capacity, scaled x29) to calculate pumped storage requirements and load shedding losses (wind output above 80% capacity during low demand periods). Adding more OCGT capacity doesn’t really help, as the critical requirement is to be able to store excess wind during low demand periods. OCGT capacity would be used mainly to assist hydro in balancing daily peak and seasonal variations in solar and wind. This would require about 16GW of additional pumped storage (>1200GWh over a 5 day period), a little more than double the capacity of the Tantangara/Blowering project you detailed. A 1.5GW HVDC link to WA would reduce pumped hydro peak pumping capacity by 1.5GW but require a larger total storage capacity (which is available).

I have been looking at this comment more carefully and have the following comments:

Based on the 2007 NEM demand, we need 25GW average power, 33GW peak and 18GW baseload. The peak occurs at about 6:30 to 7pm in July (winter; about 2 hours after sunset and 3 to 4 hours after SCP can generate directly from the sun).

Peak Power considerations:

I understand the scenario you are analysing has 32GW peak generation capacity (comprised of: “CSP 12GW peak capacity, with 24h storage”, 16GW pumped-hydro and 4GW OCGT).

Can we rely on the 12GW of CSP from storage after sundown and after say 5 days of overcast weather?

Can the 16GW of pumped hydro generate the peak power required for say 5 or 10 days in a row if there has been insufficient wind power for pumping during those days?

Storage considerations:

If the Tantangara-Blowering pumped-hydro scheme was recharged using reliable baseload power, such as coal or nuclear, then about 40GWh of energy would be stored each night, and used the next day. However, with wind power, we may need sufficient storage to last for weeks at a time, with insufficient wind power to recharge. So, much more storage would be required and probably a larger pumping capacity to make best use of the wind power when it is available.

If we want to use Tantangara Reservoir for more than some 40GWh storage (5 hours at 8GW), I expect there will be issues with replacing the intended purpose of this reservoir and also with the limits on the rate of drawdown.

A 1.5GW HVDC link to WA would reduce pumped hydro peak pumping capacity by 1.5GW but require a larger total storage capacity

Does this mean that you assume that WA can provide a guaranteed 1.5GW of power at the time of the eastern states’ peak demand (which is after sundown in both eastern and western states in winter)?

My rough calculation of the cost of the generating assets is about $270 billion. We’d need to increase this by some $60 billion for transmission for solar and wind (even without the link to WA). Total = $330 billion.

For comparison, the rough cost to meet the same requirements with nuclear and pumped hydro is about $120 billion. The nuclear option would have far greater reliability, lower emissions and require about 1/10th as much mining, processing, manufacturing, construction and transport between each step. It seems to me the nuclear option would be cheaper and more sustainable.

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There has been a discussion about nuclear and solar power on John Quiggan’s blog web site. He has now stopped any more discussion on nuclear. There is a criticism about the “Solar Power Realities” paper. I’ve replied, but it may get deleted because it was posted after John Quiggin said “no more comments’. So I’ll post it here for others to see. My two responses are in reply to this comment: http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2010/05/06/nuclear-power-the-last-post/comment-page-9/#comment-262567

Following is my first reply:

BilB,

I will get to addressing your specific comments below. First, a general remark. I expected some sort of nonsense like you’ve written. You haven’t understood and haven’t bothered to read the papers on the CSP costs and the mix of technologies. Basically you have not understood. More on that later

Importantly, you have reneged on your undertaking. You undertook to provide the basis of your estimate of $180 billion for solar to provide our demand. You have not done so. That figure is totally ridiculous. My motivation is I am concerned about what is going on with misleading the population about the prospects for renewable energy to provide our energy needs. By continually focusing on and fiddling with renewable energy we are avoiding making the decisions that can have a real effect. You and the other renewable energy proponents are convincing people, who are not capable of checking what they are being told, that renewable energy is a viable alternative. You are deceiving people. You either don’t understand, or you do understand and are being intentionally deceptive.

Now I’ll respond to your points.

For starters you whole premise of NEM’s 2007 is not relevant to solar origin energy. Solar energy has a different peak at the middle of the day.

Wrong! The renewable energy proponents claim solar thermal can provide our energy needs. It cannot. Our energy needs are what is shown by the demand curve. CST hast to be able to provide power when ever it is demanded. CST cannot. Not at any cost!! You now say the demand is wrong and you want to change it. That is avoidance. What this paper is about is demonstrating that CST cannot supply electricity to meet the demand. Not even close. The paper clearly demonstrates that.

The Queanbeyan Solar farm from which you draw your information on solar yields is a rigidly mounted photovoltaic array

. That is true. It is irrelevant. If it was a tracking array it would produce about 20% to 30% more power (theoretically), but make little difference on the worst days in winter. Furthermore, tracking PV is more expensive per unit of output. The site is described in the cited references. However, this is irrelevant. We are not chasing 10%, 20%, 50% differences in cost. Solar power is 2000% to 4000% more expensive. Given this, the difference in cost between CST and PV is a ‘down in the weeds issue. Anyone who is numerate understands the difference between 20%, 50% and 2000%. But all you points you raised are dealt with by people who are knowledgeable in the comments on the BNC site.

The essays linked reference to storage solutions contains zero information on eutectic salt heat energy storage, and contains no performance information or any basis upon which costing conclusions can be drawn.

Wrong! Look at the cited references. Look at NEEDS for example, which is an authoritative study, unlike the modelling study you are relying on.

The essay argument that a renewable system would need to provide storage for a 90 day continuous non solar period is ridiculous on so many levels,

You’ve misunderstood or are trying to mislead, again. The amount of generation capacity needed depends on how much storage you have. There is a trade off between storage capacity and generating capacity. That is why the paper you are relying on has MS1 to MS4, where MS4 is one day of storage based on average annual capacity factor. The key problem with the study you are relying on, and what the ‘Solar Power Realities” paper, and the addendum, point out is that we should not use the average annual capacity factor. We have to use the worst case capacity factor. This is because the demand for electricity does not go away on the worst days in winter. We have to be able to generate to meet all the demand during those days. Papers like the one you are relying on completely ignore this problem. That is part of the reason you have underestimated the cost.

The essay makes no mention of other renewable energy sources other than hydro electricity which is included only as an energy storage medium.

The paper was one in a series. You did not read the others I linked to, nor did you look at the cited references. In short, you have misunderstood or are intentionally misrepresenting the papers; the papers clearly point out how far from being viable are renewable energy generators, including a mix of technologies.

The essay contains no industry or market based qualified costing information from which costing conclusions can be assessed.

There is no commercial costing data available on CST. CST is not commercial yet. That is why the study you point to is a modelling exercise. The costs used for the PV are low, not high. But this is irrelevant, because the cost of solar power is too high by 2000%, not 20% or 50%.

This is a sloppy, unprofessional piece of work and the conclusions drawn from it are 100% unsupportable.

I expected something like that, given your previous dismissals before you’d read anything and given you have a business interest in CST and probably have your snout in the public funding trough as well.

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My second reply to http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2010/05/06/nuclear-power-the-last-post/comment-page-9/#comment-262567 (and also relating to the preceding discussion)

Bilb clearly has no intention of following through on his undertaking to provide the basis of his cost estimate of $180 billion for CST, so I’ll address some questions to Bilb which may highlight for others just how ridiculous is his estimate of $180 billion to supply our power with CST.
.
1. How much did you allow for the over-build needed to provide power through winter, and specifically through extended periods of overcast weather in winter?

2. How much did you allow for transmission?

3. How much did you allow for construction in the Australian desert?

For those interested, regarding construction of CST consider the following:

1. CST needs to be built in our desert regions to maximise insolation. They need to be widely distributed to maximise the generating capacity during long periods of widespread cloud cover, and dust storms. Let’s assume for now we need 200 of 250MW CST plants to provide our 2007 demand. These would need to be widely distributed over an area of desert about 1000km by 3000km, e.g. between Alice Springs and Broome.

2. CST requires about 8 times as much concrete and 15 times as much steel as a nuclear power plant. So a 250MW CST requires about twice as much concrete and 4 times as much steel as a 1000MW nuclear plant.

3. That translates to about 2 to 4 times as many workers, and at least twice as much fresh water (for concrete) during construction.

4. We’d need towns and a ‘fly-in fly-out’ airport for each construction. The town would need to accommodate some twice the number of people required to build a nuclear plant. We need to build about 200 of these towns and ‘fly-in fly-out’ airports over 40 years, or about 5 per year. These are far bigger than anything the mining industry builds, and we’d need to build five new ones per year.

5. We need fresh water at each power station – about twice as much as needed for an NPP. Where do we get it? We’d need desalination plants along the west coast, dams in the north and pipes laid out across the desert.

6. Certainly we can argue about details, and I am sure BilB will pick some out to argue about. But if we think of the big picture, and recognise the overall scale of what is being proposed by the CST advocates, we can begin to realise how absolutely ridiculous this whole concept is.

Without including the costs for the items above, the paper BilB is relying on estimates the cost of CST is about $16,000/kW in 2010. That is about 4 times the cost of a new, ‘first of a kind’ nuclear power plant (ref. the recently awarded contract for the first nuclear power plant in the UAE at about $$4,100/kW).

Regarding the CST advocates’ cost estimates, as reflected in the paper Bilb is relying on, they are gross underestimates as has been demonstrated by the past 20 years of gross exaggerations by the solar power advocates. David Mills for example has been saying for the past 20 years “solar thermal can provide baseload power now and at a competitive price. If the government would just give us some more funds we could demonstrate it”.

The ‘learning curves’ are ridiculous. NEEDS was based on the same learning curves in their 2007 report. They projected the cost of solar thermal would drop by about 30% by 2010. In fact, EPRI estimates the CST costs have increased by about 30% over that time.

Importantly, the most optimistic projections (by the CST advocates) is that this technology might be achievable between 2020 and 2030. For example, the paper Bilb is relying on states, on page 6: “The comparison shows that CSP can become fully competitive between 2020 and 2030, and can later contribute significantly to stabilize global electricity costs.” In other words, some time in the way-off, never-never, CST may be economic to do something, perhaps!!

BilB is trying to promote his own business interests, He should not be believed. I suggest reading the four papers yourself, then asking questions on the BNC web site. I and others will answer, and if an error is found, I will be pleased to correct it and reissue the paper(s).

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At the moment it seems to be displayed there …

Thanks for your efforts Peter. It’s good that this stuff is on the record.

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Fran,

You did well too. We may have got some points through to a few lerkers, even if not to the stridently anti-nukes.

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Whyalla Solar Thermal plant

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/05/13/2898697.htm

This article says the plant will be 40MW and cost $230 million. The article also says it will reduce GHG emissions by 60,000t/a. If the conversion factor is 1.0 t CO2-e/MWh, then the plant produces 60,000MWh/year. In that case, the average annual capacity factor is 17%. That would suggest the energy storage component is insignificant. I’d like to know the MWh of energy per year rather then the tonnes of CO2. I’d also like to know what is the Capacity factor on the worst day of the year, because that is what we need to design for if we have only one day of energy storage.

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I thought the Whyalla solar plant works on high temperature dissociation of ammonia which generates heat when recombined. If they don’t have some form of storage it’s no better than a coal plant saying it is ‘capture ready’ i.e. a stalling exercise.

Whyalla has a long way to go before it can call itself clean and green. Ships regularly call in to OneSteel laden with coking coal from Newcastle. Strangely a coke oven by-product is ammonia not sure where it goes. Santos has or had a NG to propane separation plant next to where BHP wants to build the controversial desal.

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